PI Intake/Cam install problem

Outlaw97GT · Sep 26, 2006

You sure you don't have a blown headgasket?
Coolant in your oil is a sign of that.

Just an idea...

Dusstbuster · Sep 26, 2006

Thats what I was told by chris (mistercmk) too. My only thought is that I know coolant probably leaked over or through the intake manifold gasket and might have gotten into the cylinders....who knows. If it's the head gaskets i'm selling the car, plain and simple. I'm sick of dealing with it.

stangGT97 · Sep 26, 2006

Outlaw97GT said:
You sure you don't have a blown headgasket?
Coolant in your oil is a sign of that.

Just an idea...

yeah that idea was thrown out there... it's just kinda weird it happened right after this swap! Still a legit possibility though.

Well that EGR tube has some (a little) flexibility. I just unscrewed the valve from my plenum, and i was able to maneuver the manifold undernead the pipe. You really need to completely strip everything off the manifold prior to putting it back onto the heads. If you need to remove that tube though, it connects to the drivers side manifold, and im sure it will be rusted to sht by now. We pulled the old one off my dad's 1997 F-150 4.6 and we couldnt get a new EGR on. Then the manifold fell off quality

Dusstbuster · Sep 26, 2006

Greeaaattt....lol. Maybe i'll crawl under there tonight and plaster the mofo with penetrating oil. That'll be a nice smokeshow when we start it up again. That's really the only thing that is F'ing this install up though (if it isn't a headgasket). Like I said, if it is a headgasket, i'm done with the car. I'll see if i feel like renting a compression tester. Any ideas on the price of that?
Oh and when we put the manifold on, it's naked, nothing but the manifold.

COramprat · Sep 26, 2006

Man that sucks...I don't know how I got through mine with no issues. My luck is usually like yours. But I came through with no problems.

The cam swap I did fold the gasket over and had to pull the cover to reseal it. Other than that that swap came out OK too.

I'm thinking if you are getting the popping that wouldn't be a symptom of a blown head gasket...

Did you make sure all of the rockers were in place when the cams were tightened down?

Mel96GT · Sep 26, 2006

Dusstbuster said:
Greeaaattt....lol. Maybe i'll crawl under there tonight and plaster the mofo with penetrating oil. That'll be a nice smokeshow when we start it up again. That's really the only thing that is F'ing this install up though (if it isn't a headgasket). Like I said, if it is a headgasket, i'm done with the car. I'll see if i feel like renting a compression tester. Any ideas on the price of that?
Oh and when we put the manifold on, it's naked, nothing but the manifold.

I did the exact swap you did and everything came out right. My question is how did you re-install the rockers? Those rockers should be installed AFTER the caps are torqued down, otherwise the torque readings will be lower due to the lifters pushing up. What did you torque the cam caps to (71-106 in-lbs)? These cam installs are easy to mess up if you are not careful and do everything just right. Did you re-install the cam sensor on the driver's side on the cam cover? Have you checked your distributors to see if one is bad? Check all your wiring to make sure everything is attached correctly. Go buy a Chilton's manual and check your codes and firing order. That car should start and run fine with the stock tune.

Just buy a compression tester at Harbor Freight or other tool store for about $20.00. Your compression should be about 180-ish on both sides. If your compression is low on one side you skipped a tooth. Also, do not try to unscrew that EGR tube (it's literaly welded on), rather unbolt it from the plenum like the other reader said. Just use a good high-temp gasket sealant and re-use the old gasket when you re-attach it to the plenum. I've replaced two NPI manifolds this way with no problems. Good luck and keep us posted.

Dusstbuster · Sep 26, 2006

Mel96GT said:
I did the exact swap you did and everything came out right. My question is how did you re-install the rockers? What did you torque the cam caps to? Did you re-install the cam sensor on the driver's side on the cam cover? Have you checked your distributors to see if one is bad? Check all your wiring to make sure everything is attached correctly. Go buy a Chilton's manual and check your codes and firing order. That car should start and run fine with the stock tune.

Just buy a compression tester at Harbor Freight or other tool store for about $20.00. Your compression should be about 180-ish on both sides. If your compression is low on one side you skipped a tooth. Also, do not try to unscrew that EGR tube (it's literaly welded on), rather unbolt it from the plenum like the other reader said. Just use a good high-temp gasket sealant and re-use the old gasket when you re-attach it to the plenum. I've replaced two NPI manifolds this way with no problems. Good luck and keep us posted.

For the cam swap im 99.9% sure we didn't screw anything up. We popped some rockers off during the swap so we actually like quadruple checked to make sure all of them were on properly before we fully bolted everything down and covered it up, trust me on that. Also, like chris and I have stated before, we kept PLENTY of tension on the cam gear/chain that it'd have been pretty much impossible for the chain to have skipped a tooth on the crank, and since the cam and gear only mesh one way, there is no way that changed at all.

For the manifold install do you think it'd make more sense to lay the RTV down on the gasket and manifold and then let it cure before bolting the 2 together? We're thinking the main reason this leak is happening is because of the way the manifold goes into the car because of that EGR valve, we have to do so much manuvering with it to get it around the EGR and lined up with the bolt holes that we probably smear all the RTV around and screw up any sealing it would have accomplished. Thats why im saying if that EGR would just go to hell this install would probably be a walk in the park compared to this hell on earth that it's turned out to be thus far. Also if the plugs are fairly blackened do you think I should get new ones or should that just be something I could wipe off and be usable? The passenger side plugs were all fine and all the drivers side plugs were covered in soot.

The plugs:

Mel96GT · Sep 26, 2006

Did you install the rockers and then torque the cam caps? You really should have torqued the caps first then installed the rockers. Did you torque to 71-106 in-lbs.? If the plugs are black on one side you have ignition/fuel problems. You don't need new plugs since these are tough and can go 50k+ miles. Just wipe them off and re-install. DO NOT attempt to re-gap them. Make sure you torque the plugs correctly to 7-15 ft-lbs or whatever the manufacturer specs. I think you need to re-check your firing order and distributors. Also check your injectors sequence and test them. It sounds like you have a minor glitch that is holding everything up.

As for the RTV, follow the manufacturer directions. You only need a dab between the PI gasket and NPI head around the coolant ports. That is it.

stangGT97 · Sep 27, 2006

Mel96GT said:
Did you install the rockers and then torque the cam caps? You really should have torqued the caps first then installed the rockers. Did you torque to 71-106 in-lbs.? If the plugs are black on one side you have ignition/fuel problems. You don't need new plugs since these are tough and can go 50k+ miles. Just wipe them off and re-install. DO NOT attempt to re-gap them. Make sure you torque the plugs correctly to 7-15 ft-lbs or whatever the manufacturer specs. I think you need to re-check your firing order and distributors. Also check your injectors sequence and test them. It sounds like you have a minor glitch that is holding everything up.

As for the RTV, follow the manufacturer directions. You only need a dab between the PI gasket and NPI head around the coolant ports. That is it.

First off he's using NPI gaskets. Dustbuster, when I did my manifold install w/ NPI gaskets, I lines the gaskets up on the manifold, RTVed where they missed and allowed it to cure over night before attempting to put it on the heads. If those plugs are gunked up like that, I would be ready to replace them... ask svttech76, he sees it all the time - modulars foul out plugs very easily.

Dusstbuster · Sep 27, 2006

stangGT97 said:
First off he's using NPI gaskets. Dustbuster, when I did my manifold install w/ NPI gaskets, I lines the gaskets up on the manifold, RTVed where they missed and allowed it to cure over night before attempting to put it on the heads. If those plugs are gunked up like that, I would be ready to replace them... ask svttech76, he sees it all the time - modulars foul out plugs very easily.

Alright we'll probably try that this time. We're probably going to destroy the 2nd pair of gaskets when we remove the manifold again so thats another $16 from Ford. Wow the piecemealing on this install has really slaughtered my checking account, thank God for weekly direct deposits.

Switching over to non synthetic for this one time shouldn't really be an issue should it? I really don't want to run the risk of fouling up another 6 quarts of synthetic and spend upwards of 100 on just oil/filters when I could just go with crap oil that'll last me for the next month max. Then when it's time to take it out of winter storage (if we can even get it there) i'll be changing it right away.

stangGT97 · Sep 27, 2006

Dusstbuster said:
Alright we'll probably try that this time. We're probably going to destroy the 2nd pair of gaskets when we remove the manifold again so thats another $16 from Ford. Wow the piecemealing on this install has really slaughtered my checking account, thank God for weekly direct deposits.

Switching over to non synthetic for this one time shouldn't really be an issue should it? I really don't want to run the risk of fouling up another 6 quarts of synthetic and spend upwards of 100 on just oil/filters when I could just go with crap oil that'll last me for the next month max. Then when it's time to take it out of winter storage (if we can even get it there) i'll be changing it right away.

you can switch back and forth between the two. My recommendation is Motorcraft 5w30, its only $2 something/quart. Before you tear off the manifold, perhaps you should do a vacuum test... if the thing isn't leaking, I'd hate for you to waste the time re-gasketing. Those plugs are hosed though, if it was my car I would replace them. Imagine if they were causing your problems? I could be rolling my car over a cliff after wasting all that time trying to fix it. Just cheap assurance if you ask me (and I'm not rich, so I'm not like bla bla bla nothing is expensive to me)

Dusstbuster · Sep 27, 2006

Alright i'll probably be picking up a new oil filter/oil/4 plugs today. We'll hopefully be able to tear the manifold off without destroying the gaskets, I don't want to spend another $16 on new ones. Then we'll RTV the gaskets onto the manifold itself and let that cure overnight. Dab a little RTV on the head itself around the coolant ports so it's double RTV'd and then set that on a day later. If that doesn't solve my problems i'm seriously considering just selling the car. Rather sad that an install that's supposed to go so easily compared to some things is bringing me to this point...I also hope I haven't destroyed my seals in the cylinder themselves. There is so much crap in them now. Hopefully the coolant that got into the oil just thinned it up enough that it was able to seep past the rings, otherwise i'm going to get the car running and have some major seal issues and blowby in the pistons. I'll see if I feel like purchasing a compression tester after the fact just to make sure they all are running properly. Gah...off to class for the next 3 hours then back to work on the car.

Mel96GT · Sep 27, 2006

stangGT97 said:
First off he's using NPI gaskets. Dustbuster, when I did my manifold install w/ NPI gaskets, I lines the gaskets up on the manifold, RTVed where they missed and allowed it to cure over night before attempting to put it on the heads. If those plugs are gunked up like that, I would be ready to replace them... ask svttech76, he sees it all the time - modulars foul out plugs very easily.

My bad. First off switch to a PI gasket that way you are almost gauranteed a leak free fit for the intake manifold. You are making a mess with those NPI gaskets. I used adapter plates and both sets of gaskets, but those plates aren't available anymore.

stangGT97 · Sep 27, 2006

Mel96GT said:
My bad. First off switch to a PI gasket that way you are almost gauranteed a leak free fit for the intake manifold. You are making a mess with those NPI gaskets. I used adapter plates and both sets of gaskets, but those plates aren't available anymore.

Yeah Mel, I figured you just missed that part. I also used NPI gaskets when I did my install, but they started to leak a little bit (tiny tiny bit). Lucky for me, my WP started peeing coolant at the outlet, so I needed to pull the manifold and replace a bunch of crap. That gave me the opportunity to use PI gaskets.

Dustbuster... dude, you DO NOT need to RTV the coolant ports when using NPI gaskets. The gaskets make a perfect seal for the coolant between the head and intake. If the gasket is FUBARed enough that you need rtv to seal the water jackets, then you should toss them in the garbage. If you lived closer I would offer to help you out, I hate to see you struggle with this. I just hope it turns out to be a minor problem so you can get the stang going again.

Dusstbuster · Sep 27, 2006

stangGT97 said:
Yeah Mel, I figured you just missed that part. I also used NPI gaskets when I did my install, but they started to leak a little bit (tiny tiny bit). Lucky for me, my WP started peeing coolant at the outlet, so I needed to pull the manifold and replace a bunch of crap. That gave me the opportunity to use PI gaskets.

Dustbuster... dude, you DO NOT need to RTV the coolant ports when using NPI gaskets. The gaskets make a perfect seal for the coolant between the head and intake. If the gasket is FUBARed enough that you need rtv to seal the water jackets, then you should toss them in the garbage. If you lived closer I would offer to help you out, I hate to see you struggle with this. I just hope it turns out to be a minor problem so you can get the stang going again.

Being as i'm so gunshy right now with this whole install do you think it would hurt it if we just put a light amount of RTV by the coolant ports? With all this leaking thats been going on im just nervous about everything. How about this....on these pictures of the gaskets, you should highlight in yellow where we should RTV. Do we need ANY RTV on the side that will mate with the head being as it's the NPI head and NPI gasket?

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k166/RaceVids88/Cam001edited.jpg
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k166/RaceVids88/Cam004edited.jpg

stangGT97 · Sep 27, 2006

Dusstbuster said:
Being as i'm so gunshy right now with this whole install do you think it would hurt it if we just put a light amount of RTV by the coolant ports? With all this leaking thats been going on im just nervous about everything. How about this....on these pictures of the gaskets, you should highlight in yellow where we should RTV. Do we need ANY RTV on the side that will mate with the head being as it's the NPI head and NPI gasket?

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k166/RaceVids88/Cam001edited.jpg
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k166/RaceVids88/Cam004edited.jpg

Are those gaskets new? If so, do not use any RTV at all around the coolant ports. Like I said before, the NPI gaskets provide a perfect seal between the head and coolant ports. Now, for the intake ports, see the attached image for the general area where you need to RTV...

View attachment 437562

You get the idea, you will see where the gasket misses. there (and only there) do you need to put RTV.

Dusstbuster · Sep 27, 2006

Alright, so NO, nada, nien, zip, zero, zilch RTV between the head and gasket, only on those spots.

stangGT97 · Sep 27, 2006

Dusstbuster said:
Alright, so NO, nada, nien, zip, zero, zilch RTV between the head and gasket, only on those spots.

I only put the RTV in those spots and it held up well. I don't think I used enough so eventually I got a pinhole leak..

Dusstbuster · Sep 27, 2006

pinhole coolant leak or pinhole air leak? so it probably wouldn't hurt if we did a small ring of RTV on the heads around the coolant ports or would that in turn make it sit a little higher possibly and then cause vacuum leaks...

Outlaw97GT · Sep 27, 2006

Looks to me that the intake already has gaskets made in it, the o-ring gaskets. Ive seen a few intakes like that.

If so, there is your problem, your trying to use 2 sets of gaskets and it leaking through the two. The intakes with the o-ring gaskets made in it , you don't use any other gaskets.
Just use a little RTV around the coolant ports only, and you'll be set....

PI Intake/Cam install problem

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