Im thinking of getting an pms or a tweecer for my SN95 I right now have a mailorder chip, it works but I like to be able to tune the car better, specially the idle which one from your experience do You like best??, the tweecer is more affordable but is it as good as the pms ?? and what about tech support, I really don't have a clue so any suggestions would be apreciated thanks guys ............
PMS OR TWEECER R/T ???
- Thread starter dartvader
- Start date
94Blue302GT
Member
the pms looks higher quality, but i think the tweecer takes a little more knowledge. Either way, you'll get a great way to tinker around with an ECU that's over 10 years old and make it do tricks.
You might want to dig around the Tuning sub-forums on here and elsewhere on the web. You will be able to see what each unit can do (or what the PMS can't do, since the TwEECer can about do it all. I dont mean that as a bash on the PMS - it's just how I see the units). The PMS is reportedly a lot more userfriendly however. So if you don't need to do a whole ton of stuff, a PMS can be a nice way to go for some folks.
Grady's website has a lot of very good info too.
Good luck.
Grady's website has a lot of very good info too.
Good luck.
You wanna know the difference between em 
You'd like to be able to tune your Stang ... You Say
Do like J T told you about in the 94-95 tuning area
After you look at no more than a dozen threads .......
You'll be able to see Who uses Which method.
Then, use their name to focus in on their knowledge.
You'll find enough reading to keep you busy for ......
at least 30 minutes
Grady
You'd like to be able to tune your Stang ... You Say
Do like J T told you about in the 94-95 tuning area
After you look at no more than a dozen threads .......
You'll be able to see Who uses Which method.
Then, use their name to focus in on their knowledge.
You'll find enough reading to keep you busy for ......
at least 30 minutes
Grady
blksn955.o
Founding Member
After looking at both and seeing the +/- of things.
To me it comes down to YOU
what are YOU willing to learn/do/spend/invest (time and money) into this?
They are both good products and offer things the other does not.
To me it comes down to YOU
what are YOU willing to learn/do/spend/invest (time and money) into this?
They are both good products and offer things the other does not.
blksn955.o
Founding Member
I have heard good things about megasquirt, SCT PRP, FAST, and AEM (from the killer standalone thread). I still like my tweecer alot though.
I was in the same situation, I was having trouble deciding between the RT and the PMS.
I decided on the RT.
Reasons: ( no order)
1. Price
2. Versatility
3. Free data logging software
4. can eliminate smog/egr
This things including the fact that I am not afraid to get in to all of the numerical calculations convinced me to go with the RT.
If you are not comfortable about things like maf tranfer functions, spark advance, spreadsheets etc, you probably shouldnt be tuning. If your not afraid, then tuning is for you, how deepp you want to dive in to all that mess will dictate which tuner you.
Tweecer=3ft-10ft deep 565 w datalogging
PMS=kiddie pool-10ft deep 1000+w data logging
I am not an expert by the way, just starting. gl
I decided on the RT.
Reasons: ( no order)
1. Price
2. Versatility
3. Free data logging software
4. can eliminate smog/egr
This things including the fact that I am not afraid to get in to all of the numerical calculations convinced me to go with the RT.
If you are not comfortable about things like maf tranfer functions, spark advance, spreadsheets etc, you probably shouldnt be tuning. If your not afraid, then tuning is for you, how deepp you want to dive in to all that mess will dictate which tuner you.
Tweecer=3ft-10ft deep 565 w datalogging
PMS=kiddie pool-10ft deep 1000+w data logging
I am not an expert by the way, just starting. gl
thanks guys I think Im leaning towards the the tweecer, better price, it seems you can do more with the tweecer than the pms????, better tech support , yes I heard its more diffcult to learn with a tweecer but Im in no hurry and with all the available tech support eventually I will get there.........
TheRedBlur
Active Member
Yeah, it takes a bit of knowledge, considering the tables designed by ford uses a series of matrices and their ... eh... 
domain/ranges are all dictated by scalar multiplication, yeah, you gotta know math to make it work. For one thing, I know that the idle control and EGR scalars should be set to 1, and adjusted properly for an accurate idle. EGR delete will need an EGR scalar of 0. That's about all I know LOL!
domain/ranges are all dictated by scalar multiplication, yeah, you gotta know math to make it work. For one thing, I know that the idle control and EGR scalars should be set to 1, and adjusted properly for an accurate idle. EGR delete will need an EGR scalar of 0. That's about all I know LOL! 
JJ95GTID
Active Member
The Tweecer may be a bargin up front but you need to include the cost of a laptop if you don't already have one. The PMS is standalone unit. As for Megasquirt systems from what I have seen from my friends unit it is really sweet. If they do come out with a PNP unit I would definately look at those too.
PMS Represent!
I chose to go with the PMS because of the prove track record AFM has with their products. I've talked to Rick many a time about tuning my car. When you buy the PMS, you get a mod sheet and you fill it out and send it back to them. they give you a base tune to start from.
The base that they gave me was 98% perfect. only thing i had to adjust was the idle a bit. I dynoed it and the a/f couldn't be better. that was just Rick knowing his stuff. I've dealt with shops before and have never had the help/support AFM has offered so far.
I wanted a standalone controller so i didn't have to worry about a bulky laptop while i'm driving. I can tune my car with one hand while driving down the road.
in retrospect though i think i would have rather went with the AEM setup like Chris.
I chose to go with the PMS because of the prove track record AFM has with their products. I've talked to Rick many a time about tuning my car. When you buy the PMS, you get a mod sheet and you fill it out and send it back to them. they give you a base tune to start from.
The base that they gave me was 98% perfect. only thing i had to adjust was the idle a bit. I dynoed it and the a/f couldn't be better. that was just Rick knowing his stuff. I've dealt with shops before and have never had the help/support AFM has offered so far.
I wanted a standalone controller so i didn't have to worry about a bulky laptop while i'm driving. I can tune my car with one hand while driving down the road.
in retrospect though i think i would have rather went with the AEM setup like Chris.
To me and my way of thinking
You'll have the cost of a wide band ............
No matter which interface you go with
I'd have a laptop with any method of tuning
because
It makes storage of real time data easy
Here is how I viewed self tuning when I was considering doing it and what I found out with my research. Perhaps it can help you.
Before I ever looked into self tuning possibilities and I was just thinking about what I required or wanted when it came to self tuning my Stang I envisioned something along these lines.
To Tune:
An interface or substitute for the pcm
Software working with that interface to make tuning changes
The above would be loaded on a laptop suitable for the tuning the Stang
To Datalog:
I knew I wanted to be able to store data on a hard drive for analysis.
What I did not know was if I was gonna need a second laptop for the data storage.
I had seen some articles of how the pcm could output:
lambse
spark
tps position
and more too
After learning that ...........
My first natural reaction to seeing the data all laid out in columns was ....
"WOW"... "It would be so simple to throw it all in Excell"
I then immediately got excited and saw ALL KINDS of possibilities of how I could use that data to my advantage
but
I can sum them all up for you with two main applications:
1) As a baseline or starting point to tune
2) As a method of verifying tuning changes
The EEC Tuner had been out not too long when I started to look into how I was gonna go about making my plans happen.
I quickly saw it was able to manipulate the pcm values
but
it was very limited in its ability to store data.
I had a gut feeling someone had seen its limitations as I had and felt a more suitable tuning option would be available soon. I spent some time with all those EEC Tuner peeps as I knew I needed to learn about the pcm if I was gonna be any good at self tuning while I was waiting for a better hard/soft ware option to become available.
Sure enough, not too long later, one of those guys started to say he had some ideas about a better way to make changes and gather the data.
The Tweecer was born not too long after that.
For a good while, nothing good came along until the PMS.
I have talked to PMS users
and
read many, many threads from PMS users.
To be totally truthful here ...........
I've not used the PMS to tune.
I do believe it to be very capable!
Let me now say something to help you relate to a basic tuning fact.
There are two basic parts to self tuning
1) Closed Loop - cruise around town and drivability
2) Open Loop - WOT and maximum power
Its #1 ... where PMS & Tweecer go about doing things very differently
IMHO ... that don't make either one good or bad ... just different
PMS does not give access to some things in the pcm, that is true
however
PMS peeps will tell you they can tune their Stangs to stock like drivability conditions just as Tweecer peeps will tell you.
As for ease or difficulty in self tuning.
You are gonna have to learn the basics of how the pcm does its thing if you wanna be the most effective at self tuning no matter which method you choose. I wanna stress ... I am talking about ... just the basics and not everything here.
The PMS is more user friendly without a doubt.
however
Lots of misunderstanding has been floating around all over these boards about learning to tune with the Tweecer IMHO.
It has been blown all out of proportion.
These days the info ... the accurate info I might add ... is easily found all over the net.
Yes ... you're gonna have to learn some new things
but
It ain't ... Rocket Science ... Or some kinda Black Magic ..........
Like some make it out to be.
At this point you may be thinking which is better?
Each option is good and provides a different method to please different types of peeps. Again ... Its all about ones perspective.
I wanted to tune and have data. I went with the Tweecer and did not have the choice of using the PMS simply because it wasn't available back then.
I've given you my perspective as it was before I looked into any of this
and
I've given you my perspective as things in this field progressed
and now
lets move on up to how it is these days.
Knowing what I now know and considering my choices these days ....
I would still go with the Tweecer as it gives me more pcm access
and
datalogging ability ....... For Less Money.
True ... with the Tweecer ... I gotta think more
but
I can think cheaper than I can spend ... LOL
The SCT Pro Racer Package is a Great option as well
but
Like the PMS ... it wil cost you more.
To be fair ... You gotta expect to pay for the user friendly advantage!
One last important thing about the Tweecer ..........
It ain't perfect and the software is a bit buggy
but
There are ways to minimize its weak points
Hope this helps you in some way and good luck with your decision.
Grady
You'll have the cost of a wide band ............
No matter which interface you go with
I'd have a laptop with any method of tuning
because
It makes storage of real time data easy
Here is how I viewed self tuning when I was considering doing it and what I found out with my research. Perhaps it can help you.
Before I ever looked into self tuning possibilities and I was just thinking about what I required or wanted when it came to self tuning my Stang I envisioned something along these lines.
To Tune:
An interface or substitute for the pcm
Software working with that interface to make tuning changes
The above would be loaded on a laptop suitable for the tuning the Stang
To Datalog:
I knew I wanted to be able to store data on a hard drive for analysis.
What I did not know was if I was gonna need a second laptop for the data storage.
I had seen some articles of how the pcm could output:
lambse
spark
tps position
and more too
After learning that ...........
My first natural reaction to seeing the data all laid out in columns was ....
"WOW"... "It would be so simple to throw it all in Excell"
I then immediately got excited and saw ALL KINDS of possibilities of how I could use that data to my advantage
but
I can sum them all up for you with two main applications:
1) As a baseline or starting point to tune
2) As a method of verifying tuning changes
The EEC Tuner had been out not too long when I started to look into how I was gonna go about making my plans happen.
I quickly saw it was able to manipulate the pcm values
but
it was very limited in its ability to store data.
I had a gut feeling someone had seen its limitations as I had and felt a more suitable tuning option would be available soon. I spent some time with all those EEC Tuner peeps as I knew I needed to learn about the pcm if I was gonna be any good at self tuning while I was waiting for a better hard/soft ware option to become available.
Sure enough, not too long later, one of those guys started to say he had some ideas about a better way to make changes and gather the data.
The Tweecer was born not too long after that.
For a good while, nothing good came along until the PMS.
I have talked to PMS users
and
read many, many threads from PMS users.
To be totally truthful here ...........
I've not used the PMS to tune.
I do believe it to be very capable!
Let me now say something to help you relate to a basic tuning fact.
There are two basic parts to self tuning
1) Closed Loop - cruise around town and drivability
2) Open Loop - WOT and maximum power
Its #1 ... where PMS & Tweecer go about doing things very differently
IMHO ... that don't make either one good or bad ... just different
PMS does not give access to some things in the pcm, that is true
however
PMS peeps will tell you they can tune their Stangs to stock like drivability conditions just as Tweecer peeps will tell you.
As for ease or difficulty in self tuning.
You are gonna have to learn the basics of how the pcm does its thing if you wanna be the most effective at self tuning no matter which method you choose. I wanna stress ... I am talking about ... just the basics and not everything here.
The PMS is more user friendly without a doubt.
however
Lots of misunderstanding has been floating around all over these boards about learning to tune with the Tweecer IMHO.
It has been blown all out of proportion.
These days the info ... the accurate info I might add ... is easily found all over the net.
Yes ... you're gonna have to learn some new things
but
It ain't ... Rocket Science ... Or some kinda Black Magic ..........
Like some make it out to be.
At this point you may be thinking which is better?
Each option is good and provides a different method to please different types of peeps. Again ... Its all about ones perspective.
I wanted to tune and have data. I went with the Tweecer and did not have the choice of using the PMS simply because it wasn't available back then.
I've given you my perspective as it was before I looked into any of this
and
I've given you my perspective as things in this field progressed
and now
lets move on up to how it is these days.
Knowing what I now know and considering my choices these days ....
I would still go with the Tweecer as it gives me more pcm access
and
datalogging ability ....... For Less Money.
True ... with the Tweecer ... I gotta think more
but
I can think cheaper than I can spend ... LOL
The SCT Pro Racer Package is a Great option as well
but
Like the PMS ... it wil cost you more.
To be fair ... You gotta expect to pay for the user friendly advantage!
One last important thing about the Tweecer ..........
It ain't perfect and the software is a bit buggy
but
There are ways to minimize its weak points
Hope this helps you in some way and good luck with your decision.
Grady
thanks Grady very interesting, like I said before i have a chip, next week Im going to do some datalogging with a friends wideband commander, so Don at LaSotaRacing can make my chip better, Don is pretty good so I just need something to play around with if I want to change shift point or latter if I change the combo. seeing what some folks can do with the tweecer r/t I think it would be all that i need considering I already own a labtop..
btw Grady if you ever come this way drop me a line ok
btw Grady if you ever come this way drop me a line ok
Redsnk95
Founding Member
Ditto.
I've owned both. PMS is so easy to use. Plus it has safe mode after 4000 rpm (if enabled). Blew the heads off the block with the Tweecer. Could have used the PMS back then.
AEM is a very good alternative to the above mentioned tweecer and PMS. I understand its kinda $$ but when u factor in the cost of data logging into the cost of say the PMS or true wideband controlling and datalogging.... your not far off.
Now i must add this, I AM IN NO WAY FLAMING THE ABOVE MENTIONED PMS OR TWEECER. I am merely throwing another idea into teh mix (AEM) since its not as expensive and hard to deal with as many people think.
Now i must add this, I AM IN NO WAY FLAMING THE ABOVE MENTIONED PMS OR TWEECER. I am merely throwing another idea into teh mix (AEM) since its not as expensive and hard to deal with as many people think.
Similar threads
