prob NO one can fix

Idwitheld-1` · Oct 30, 2004

jd351 said:
I am really starting to suspect you Harmonc damper is bad. You say you have run spout out at 20deg. base timing and it ran good. That would rule out timing chain and should rule out fuel system too. How far up can you run the timing befor you have a problem? Sounds like the damper has spun, or there is a problem with the EEC and SPOUT circuit. Either I would not rule out.

Sorry for questioning things so much, but without all the info it looked like a fuel problem. It's realy is difficult to diagnose anything your not working on yourself with the proper tools, and imposible without a lot of information. Keep it coming, someone will figure this one out I'm sure.

Reminds me of this old story, about a little old lady who takes her car to the mechanic and says, "whenever I drive to the store and get Strawberry ice cream my car won't start, but when I get Vanilla ice cream it starts just fine"

So the mechanic drove with the little old lady to the store for Strawberry ice cream.

Come to find out whenever the lady got Strawberry ice cream the stockboy had to go back to the store room to get it and it was hand packed ice cream, and it took longer then just getting the Vanilla that was in the cas ready to go. That was just enough time for her car to get a vapor lock!

Moral of the story: Don't dismis the symptoms/conditions no matter how far fetched they may sound, and you can get to the root of the problem untill you get some strawberry ice cream...

Good story. That's like the lady who pulls into the service station with her car rough and bucking. The service guy says, hey lady how about poppin the hood and I'll take a look. She says great. A few minutes pass while the attendent pokes under the hood. He appears moments later and says, "Hey lady I found your problem. You got a bunch of old crud and S****T in the carb. She replies, "I do"? How often should I replace it?

I vote EGR.
Does the EEC use EGR with spout out?

Jkstang78 · Oct 30, 2004

Ok from looking at this pic it looks like there is a 22k ohm resistor on the #4 plug on the EEC some where in that line. 4,56,38,& 16 are all the lines that go to the TFI connector and spout. What I am thinking is that this resistor is starting to fail. Or has failed all ready, and your not getting the correct resistance with the spout plug back in. Theroy I'm thinking is if the spout controls the timming. Then it might causeing less resistance and it is just not going ove the 22k ohm resistor. Remember Electricy takes the path of least resistance.

Idwitheld-1` · Oct 30, 2004

I believe the 22K ohm is a feedback loop for the EEC. It connects to the high voltage side of the TFI.

FYI elecricity will take ALL paths of conduction, not just "the least resistance"

REF: Kirchoffs voltage law, Thevenin's theorm, Norton theorm.

PNY PWR · Oct 30, 2004

Carbon build up around the valves and combustion chamber can cause pinging very easily. The heated carbon will cause detonation, igniting the fuel before the spark.

It's possible that is it.

HISSIN50 · Oct 30, 2004

i cant quote Pny Pwr (page wont load!), but that is preignition. (just clarifying in case on searches more on the malady).

as said, the deposits can act like a glow plug. too hot of a plug can do the same (one step colder sometimes helps).

Jkstang78 · Oct 30, 2004

Ok I am in school right now for Local 3 electrical apprenticeship. I have done all those theory you have said. But if you give Electricity 2 paths one with a resistance and one with out it. Which way do you think it will go.
Safety With Electricity
The amount of current flowing in a circuit depends upon the resistance of the circuit and the applied voltage. A large voltage results in large currents. A low resistance results in large current. Ohm's Law describes the situation by saying ... The current flowing is proportional to the voltage and inversely proportional to the resistance.

Another way of thinking about current flow is the rule of thumb that "...electricity takes the path of least resistance".

The voltages around a closed path in a circuit must sum to zero. (Kirchoff's law #1), the voltage drops being negative (following a current through a resistor), while the gains are positive (going through a battery from the negative to the positive terminal).

The sum of the currents entering a node must equal the sum of the currents exiting a node. (Kirchoff's Law #2)

Norton's theorem
for electrical networks states that any collection of voltage sources and resistors with two terminals is electrically equivalent to an ideal current source I in parallel with a single resistor R. The theorem can also be applied to general impedances, not just resistors.

Thevenin's theorem
for electrical networks states that any combination of voltage sources and resistors with two terminals is electrically equivalent to a single voltage source V and a single series resistor R. The theorem can also be applied to general impedances, not just resistors.

ratrapp · Oct 30, 2004

i seriously doubt that the resistor is bad.the egr valve is a good canidate.dodge neons would have spark knock,valve rattle very badly when the egr valves go out in them.i would take the egr valve off and make a block off plate and try it.you could have a jumped timing chain or the dist.shaft may be twisted or the reluctor wheel may be slipping also.

Idwitheld-1` · Oct 30, 2004

Jkstang78 said:
Ok I am in school right now for Local 3 electrical apprenticeship. I have done all those theory you have said. But if you give Electricity 2 paths one with a resistance and one with out it. Which way do you think it will go.
Safety With Electricity
The amount of current flowing in a circuit depends upon the resistance of the circuit and the applied voltage. A large voltage results in large currents. A low resistance results in large current. Ohm's Law describes the situation by saying ... The current flowing is proportional to the voltage and inversely proportional to the resistance.

Another way of thinking about current flow is the rule of thumb that "...electricity takes the path of least resistance".

The voltages around a closed path in a circuit must sum to zero. (Kirchoff's law #1), the voltage drops being negative (following a current through a resistor), while the gains are positive (going through a battery from the negative to the positive terminal).

The sum of the currents entering a node must equal the sum of the currents exiting a node. (Kirchoff's Law #2)

Norton's theorem
for electrical networks states that any collection of voltage sources and resistors with two terminals is electrically equivalent to an ideal current source I in parallel with a single resistor R. The theorem can also be applied to general impedances, not just resistors.

Thevenin's theorem
for electrical networks states that any combination of voltage sources and resistors with two terminals is electrically equivalent to a single voltage source V and a single series resistor R. The theorem can also be applied to general impedances, not just resistors.

I can have two conductors. One is a 36 gauge wire, one is a 12 inch cross sectional diameter copper conductor. Both are connected to the same load and source. Current will flow through BOTH conductors, no matter what the voltage drop across each conductor (however, different they are, they will both flow current). In fact this was a 1st year exam question when I was in college (Electrical Engineering Program, Oregon Institure of Technology). I can't tell you how many students missed this because they followed their conventional mantra that "electricity takes the path of least resistance". If this was true then Kirchoff and Thevenin theorms would say, "Forget about it. Electricity takes the path of least resistance". These theorms allow Engineers and Scientists to EXACTLY quantify a given circuit.

Now getting back to your problem. Have you changed the TFI? Do you have access to an oscilloscope? If yes, measure the 22K resistor (EEC side of the resistor) while the engine is running.

mapoff · Oct 30, 2004

I'm going to do a fresh code test tomorrow and will post a good repsonse. please don't turn this into a peeing contest. The egr sounds like a good thing too and i'll explain why tomorrow

Daggar · Oct 30, 2004

Idwitheld-1` said:
I can have two conductors. One is a 36 gauge wire, one is a 12 inch cross sectional diameter copper conductor. Both are connected to the same load and source. Current will flow through BOTH conductors, no matter what the voltage drop across each conductor (however, different they are, they will both flow current). In fact this was a 1st year exam question when I was in college (Electrical Engineering Program, Oregon Institure of Technology). I can't tell you how many students missed this because they followed their conventional mantra that "electricity takes the path of least resistance". If this was true then Kirchoff and Thevenin theorms would say, "Forget about it. Electricity takes the path of least resistance". These theorms allow Engineers and Scientists to EXACTLY quantify a given circuit.

Now getting back to your problem. Have you changed the TFI? Do you have access to an oscilloscope? If yes, measure the 22K resistor (EEC side of the resistor) while the engine is running.

Yep... current will flow through both conductors. The amount of resistance in each circuit (wire) combined with the available voltage and current will determine how much actually travels down each pathway. It's the reason for the advent of semi-conductors.

Idwitheld-1` · Oct 30, 2004

mapoff said:
I'm going to do a fresh code test tomorrow and will post a good repsonse. please don't turn this into a peeing contest. The egr sounds like a good thing too and i'll explain why tomorrow

Pull the EGR valve and give it a good cleaning.

You can leave the vac hose off (plugged of course) and see if there is a difference.

prob NO one can fix

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