Question About Cam Degree (Solid/Adjustable Lifter)

[sneaky98gt]

I'm gonna be putting in a set of cams in a couple of weeks, including degreeing them. I'm doing all the work myself, so it'll be a nice learning experience. I'm either going to borrow a cam degree kit from a friend or buy one from Summit.

The only thing I think I'm missing is a solid or adjustable lifter to use for the degree. Where could I buy one of these?

I've also read that you can get a lifter and weld it solid to use in place of one. Supposedly this will not work when checking for PTV clearance, but still will work when degreeing? Does this sound right?

Thanks for the help!

 

[nyuk98gt]

Will,

TrickFlow makes a cam degree accessory kit that includes an adjustable lash adjuster. I bought mine (adjustable lash adjuster) years ago from a ModularDepot member (Matt). I can search my old e-mail messages to see if I still have his contact info, if you want.

HTH,

Chris

**edit: FRPP offers an adjustable lash adjuster, too. Don't know if it available as a part or just as part of a whole degreeing kit. **end of edit.

 

[usaf_branham]

Im pretty sure MMR sells one.

 

[sneaky98gt]

Will,

TrickFlow makes a cam degree accessory kit that includes an adjustable lash adjuster. I bought mine (adjustable lash adjuster) years ago from a ModularDepot member (Matt). I can search my old e-mail messages to see if I still have his contact info, if you want.

HTH,

Chris

**edit: FRPP offers an adjustable lash adjuster, too. Don't know if it available as a part or just as part of a whole degreeing kit. **end of edit.

Thanks for the help, Chris.

I actually saw that Trickflow one last night when I was looking around, but didn't even click on it. I'm assuming this is the one you're talking about? Trick Flow Specialties TFS-90100 - Trick Flow® Cam Degree Supplemental Kits - Overview - SummitRacing.com

I can't find the FRPP one that you speak of, but from the searching I've done for it, it sounds like it's pretty hard to get ahold of and pretty expensive, too ($150+ 3 years ago).

Is your source's screen name 'NeverEnuff'? I saw a post of his on another forum from a few years back. If his price on the kit he sells is still $60, I'll probably just get the Trickflow one (since it's only $40).

Also, is the adjustable lifter completely needed to accurately degree the cams? I understand why it would be better and needed to check PTV clearance, but as long as a solid lifter is long enough, would that not still suffice for degreeing the cams?

I honestly don't know the answer to that question, and I don't mind spending the money to get the tools to do it right. But if I can do the same thing with a $10 part that I can with a $40 part, I'd rather save the $30.

 

[Stumbaugh]

Which cams are you going with?

 

[sneaky98gt]

Im pretty sure MMR sells one.

Ah, I see that now. Only thing, it says "solid lifter", but nothing about being adjustable.

Which cams are you going with?

MHS' Stage 2 NPI Blower cams.

 

[nyuk98gt]

Will,

........I'm assuming this is the one you're talking about? Trick Flow Specialties TFS-90100 - Trick Flow® Cam Degree Supplemental Kits - Overview - SummitRacing.com

Yes, this is the kit!

I can't find the FRPP one that you speak of, but from the searching I've done for it, it sounds like it's pretty hard to get ahold of and pretty expensive, too ($150+ 3 years ago).

LOL. Agreed. I've found FRPP to be pretty proud of their stuff.

Is your source's screen name 'NeverEnuff'? I saw a post of his on another forum from a few years back. If his price on the kit he sells is still $60, I'll probably just get the Trickflow one (since it's only $40).

Yes, NeverEnuff = Matt (formerly "dadsyellowgt" or something pretty close to that. He's a good egg to do business with, imho. I bet now he has them "in bulk quantities" so the price should be a little lower.

Also, is the adjustable lifter completely needed to accurately degree the cams? I understand why it would be better and needed to check PTV clearance, but as long as a solid lifter is long enough, would that not still suffice for degreeing the cams?

Disclaimer: I'm not a degreeing expert! I can follow instructions to the letter, though. My understanding, right or wrong, is that the adjuster needs to be adjustable so it puts no pressure on the valve (i.e.-lifts it off its seat). If the solid lifter is a perfect fit then it can be used. If it is too short, you can shim it. If it's too long, you can mill the bottom. I just followed the directions on a couple of MD threads. Nowadays, there are some updated and improved degreeing procedures (e.g.--MD (haven't checked recently), here!, and Nick's site has a great article with good pics.)

OK, I see that you're going with MHS cams. Call Nick and ask him about the solid vs. adjustable adjuster. Then, please, post up the real answer! Thank you.

Chris

 

[Stumbaugh]

Ah, I see that now. Only thing, it says "solid lifter", but nothing about being adjustable.



MHS' Stage 2 NPI Blower cams.

Why not just have Nick degree the cams for you? Well worth the $150 he charges.

 

[nyuk98gt]

Why not just have Nick degree the cams for you? Well worth the $150 he charges.

You, Sir, are a genius! Why didn't I think of that?

Having Nick degree them is, by far, the best way to go. It took me all day (yes, a turtle with a broken leg works faster than I do) and I would have gladly paid $150 for degreed cams!

Chris

 

[Stumbaugh]

You, Sir, are a genius! Why didn't I think of that?

Having Nick degree them is, by far, the best way to go. It took me all day (yes, a turtle with a broken leg works faster than I do) and I would have gladly paid $150 for degreed cams!

Chris

I know my buddy Jerry bought Nicks Nitrous specific stage 3's and had Nick degree his and he said he was very impressed with them. Just line up the dots and done.

 

[sneaky98gt]

Why not just have Nick degree the cams for you? Well worth the $150 he charges.

You, Sir, are a genius! Why didn't I think of that?

Having Nick degree them is, by far, the best way to go. It took me all day (yes, a turtle with a broken leg works faster than I do) and I would have gladly paid $150 for degreed cams!

Chris

Yea, that's what I'm starting to lean towards. I originally wanted to do it myself on account of saving a little money and learning something in the process. But the more I look into it, the more I realize it's not going to be much cheaper ($90 for a degree kit + $40 for the adjustable lifter is already near $150), and I'm still not 100% confident I can get it right. I think I'd rather have the engine out of the car and someone there to help me along. Plus, I'm sure it would take me a while to do it all.

So, I guess I'm gonna go box up the cams and send 'em out tomorrow. Hoping to start the tear-down in a couple of weeks.

 

[Winters98GT]

Awesome, Will!

What power gains and how much boost loss if any are you expecting?

 

[sneaky98gt]

Awesome, Will!

What power gains and how much boost loss if any are you expecting?

Nick said that he'd expect 50-80 rwhp with these cams at my boost levels. I think that may be a little optimistic, but I don't see 50 rwhp from them being out of the question. Best I can tell, I'm the first person to use these cams on stock NPI heads, and possible the first to use them period. If anyone else has used them, I've yet to find it on the internet. So I guess I'm kinda the guinea pig.

I'm not sure about the boost. Do you lose or gain boost with blower cams? I can see losing it on account of how much better the air is moving, but I can see gaining it on account that there's so much less overlap and thus less boost going out the exhaust.

I'm currently at 7 pounds, and the pulley I'm getting would put me at around 9 pounds with the same setup. So all in all, I'll be adding 2 pounds of boost (give or take), water/meth injection (only used for cooling), and blower cams. I don't want to set myself up for disappointment, but I think it'll break the 400 mark. We'll see in about a month.

 

[Stumbaugh]

Should be a fun ride once it's all said and done.

 

[trombonedemon]

I'm excited for the your new mod, Sneaky. Is it possible for you do start a thread about your cam experience.

For some reason, I'm thinking the Romeo engines can do cams with the Heads still in the engine, is that true.

The Windsor engines have pressed on cam gears so the Heads might have to come out?

 

[N8Dogg98]

Yea, that's what I'm starting to lean towards. I originally wanted to do it myself on account of saving a little money and learning something in the process. But the more I look into it, the more I realize it's not going to be much cheaper ($90 for a degree kit + $40 for the adjustable lifter is already near $150), and I'm still not 100% confident I can get it right. I think I'd rather have the engine out of the car and someone there to help me along. Plus, I'm sure it would take me a while to do it all.

So, I guess I'm gonna go box up the cams and send 'em out tomorrow. Hoping to start the tear-down in a couple of weeks.

That's what I did. Well worth the $150 IMO. Plus the error is on the cam/cam gear side so if you ever upgrade to ported heads and rebuild the short block, you'll know the exact amount to advance/retard each bank (assuming you keep the same cams and cam gears)

He wrote the intake centerline if installed straight up right on the face of the cam gear. Mine were 113* on the drivers side, and 108* on the passenger side (supposed to be installed at 106*). Therefore I used TFS adjustable crank gears to advance the crank 6* on the DS and 2* on the PS.

Hope that helps Will, good luck with the install and I can't wait to see the numbers.

 

[sneaky98gt]

Should be a fun ride once it's all said and done.

That's what I'm hoping for. I just hope it will stay together.

Longevity was actually the main reason I got the cams. I knew that I could up the boost along with water/meth injection and probably get 380-400 rwhp with an aggressive tune, but that would leave no room for error and be a more on-the-edge tune. I figure that with the cams, I can make the same 380-400, but on a VERY conservative tune.

I'm excited for the your new mod, Sneaky. Is it possible for you do start a thread about your cam experience.

For some reason, I'm thinking the Romeo engines can do cams with the Heads still in the engine, is that true.

The Windsor engines have pressed on cam gears so the Heads might have to come out?

I'll definitely keep everyone posted. Like I said, I don't think anyone else has run these cams before; if they have, I can't find anything on the internet about it. I'm sure there are a lot of NPI guys out there that are as curious as I am.

You can do the cams with the heads on, regardless of the plant that made them. Windsors (99-early 01) have press on gears, which simply means that you can't remove the gear from the cam easily.

He wrote the intake centerline if installed straight up right on the face of the cam gear. Mine were 113* on the drivers side, and 108* on the passenger side (supposed to be installed at 106*). Therefore I used TFS adjustable crank gears to advance the crank 6* on the DS and 2* on the PS.

Hope that helps Will, good luck with the install and I can't wait to see the numbers.

Ok, yea, that makes good sense. I had a good idea what I needed to do, but that cleared it up for me.

I shipped the cams out yesterday, should be at MHS by tomorrow. Hopefully get them back within a couple of weeks.

 

[nickmckinney]

Welded lifter is fine for degree only, it doesn't work for measuring advertised cam duration or PTV clearance.

I have probably sold about 10 sets of those specific cams and I think 8 or 9 of those went to SVO blower cars with only getting info back about one so far. I learn quite a bit about what my cams do real world browsing through the forums actually................

Did I give that HP gain against the NPI cams or PI cams BTW? I would think 50RWHP against PI cams would be about right.

People doing cam only swaps (which is rare actually) on blower cars report 2lbs loss typically with a cam around that size.

 

[sneaky98gt]

Welded lifter is fine for degree only, it doesn't work for measuring advertised cam duration or PTV clearance.

Yea, just logical thinking about it led me to that conclusion, but I didn't want to chance anything.

I have probably sold about 10 sets of those specific cams and I think 8 or 9 of those went to SVO blower cars with only getting info back about one so far. I learn quite a bit about what my cams do real world browsing through the forums actually................

Yea, I've spent many a late night hours browsing through forums and such trying to find info on these cams, but still haven't found anything. I'll definitely keep you updated on how they do on my car. Matter of fact, I've already talked to my tuner about first making a few pulls on the dyno with my current pulley with no other changes just to see how much I get from the cams. I'm sure someone out there will appreciate that info.

Did I give that HP gain against the NPI cams or PI cams BTW? I would think 50RWHP against PI cams would be about right.

Hmm, I actually may not have mentioned that I had PI cams, so you may have been assuming I had NPI cams. I'd sure like to see 50 rwhp.

People doing cam only swaps (which is rare actually) on blower cars report 2lbs loss typically with a cam around that size.

Ok, well that's good news. The pulley I'm going to is supposed to be about 2 more pounds of boost than I'm making right now (with my current setup). I was a little worried about belt slip with the design of the SVO pulley location and a smaller pulley, but if the net difference is 0 pounds of boost, that shouldn't be a problem.

 

[nickmckinney]

Cams went out and will be at your casa Thursday, let me know how it turns out.

BTW - in typical Bullet fashion they are both retarded and need some advance put back into them.