Really need some tech help. Starting problem intermittent

[4dStang]

Hey guys,

I have a 95 Gt that is kicking my butt. I am pretty sharp on fixing problems but this one has me STUMPED. I have tested various components and hope that all the info will help some one help me to get this worked out.

Heres the deal:
Car will start up in the morning but when I drive for say ten to twenty minutes, stop and try to restart it slows to start or does not start at all.

-Last week I put in the third starter.
-Two weeks before I put in a new alternator
-Alt puts out 13.47 V @ the battery posts
-Alt puts out 14.40V @ the alternator post to engine ground
-Starter starts sometimes if I jump the posts
-Had the battery tested at autozone, tested good under load. It is a
Motorcraft battery and no so old.
-Made new starter cables out of 4 GA wire with crimped gold terminals.
-Made new ground wires out of 4 GA with crimped gold terminals and cleaned
the paint at the connection for a good connection
-Did not replace ignition wire to starter
-Made a new chassis to block ground
-Battery voltage sits at 12.23V
-Car runs with battery disconnected

I think I tested everything but something is missing in my trouble shooting.
I would REALLY appreciate it if I could get some second opinions on any other things to check or if one of my components are low or bad.

Thanks guys.

 

[5.0 Nostalgia]

Did you check all of the grounds. Is it only the starter? I mean, when the car will not start, does everything else work? If so, I would look at the starter ground wire connected to the negative cable. It is right behind the battery.

 

[4dStang]

Did you check all of the grounds. Is it only the starter? I mean, when the car will not start, does everything else work? If so, I would look at the starter ground wire connected to the negative cable. It is right behind the battery.

If you read my post it shows that I made all new ground wires. It will start once in a while but it is like the battery is being drained but all the lights etc work. I basically made all new positive and negative cables to try to TS this issue. I have warranties on all my new parts except the battery and have exercised that right on the starter three times. I don't think that it is the starter. The only thing that concerns me is that the alternator is only getting 13.4 V at the battery but puts out 14+ at the alternator post.

The alternator will keep the car running if I disconnect the battery but it doesn't seen to be charging the battery. Battery tested good and I charged it fully a few days ago.

 

[jerry beach]

Your alt is charging the battery at idle. dont pull the terminals off the batt with the engine running, the alt will full field and fry electronics. Sounds like an intermittant solenoid prob to me since you say it starts when you jump that out. I would change it. Try Napa or Car Quest, I would not buy a cheap one. I have seen them not work when new. A quality part will only cost a few bucks more. Good luck.

 

[5.0 Nostalgia]

I did read your post. And from the sound of it, your problem is somewhere in electrical for the starter. Whether it's the starter relay or the wiring there is no way to tell without seeing it. I had a similar problem in my car. It would only start sometimes. After pulling the battery out I saw that the ground wire for the starter corroded and barely connected.

Check all the connections again. It's free and better than wasting time and money on parts that are good. If all your connections are good, then there is hardware trouble.

 

[4dStang]

Your alt is charging the battery at idle. dont pull the terminals off the batt with the engine running, the alt will full field and fry electronics. Sounds like an intermittant solenoid prob to me since you say it starts when you jump that out. I would change it. Try Napa or Car Quest, I would not buy a cheap one. I have seen them not work when new. A quality part will only cost a few bucks more. Good luck.

Don't have a separate solonoid. This is an SN 95 with a built in solonoid to the starter. The auto parts store would kick me out if I brought back the starter for the 4th time. I liken the solonoid but I jumped it at the terminals a few times and it just clicked, but other times it would start. If I jump start the car and add 24 volts it will start right up. Also I can bump it very easily. It will drive for miles without dying but as soon as I stop, blah no start just click. Sometimes if I turn the key, the starter will go slow and then speed up and start.

I had to pull the batt cables to see if the engine was running off of the battery. I have never heard of an alt frying by removing the cables. Plus, I still have a year warranty on it, so its ok.

I am perplexed by this one. I appreciate any help. Thanks guys. I really hate to take it to a shop because I have always done all my own work but this one just keeps dragging out.



Maybe I can make two cables and connect them to test the solonoid instead of frying my tools!

I think I will try that because I am stuck at either a bad ground (which I doubt) or another bad starter. I just need a motorcraft starter. I guess I will pull the starter from my Cobra and swap them.

 

[jerry beach]

Do you have long tube headers? Sounds like your starter may be getting too hot, cause it starts good cold. Timing comes to mind too, have you bumped it? If so put it back and see if it persists.

I didnt say pulling the cables off the batt. will fry your alt. It can fry you computer and sensors though, so dont do that again. If you want to see if the alt is charging use a volt meter, even if its the sorry one in the dash. This was an OK test on a carbed car, I have done it. But never do that to a computer controlled one, circuit boards and sensors dont like high voltage. Your alt will put out all it can when you pull the cables off, that is why you shouldnt do that. HTH, Good luck.

 

[4dStang]

No long tubes. I do have eq length headers though.


The starting problem cant be cold/hot related because after driving, I went in the house for an hour, came out to jump it and it started. I backed it up, pulled it in the garage, turned it off and tried to restart and no go, nothing just a little click. That is why I am perplexed. It is surely a power or ground problem, but I replaced all the wires in an attempt to fix but no fix.

I charged the battery to full and drove it for a few days. It started slow some times but always seemed to start. Suddenly the monster is back and I can't replace everything again. I bet if I went home right now, the dang thing would start!

I am going to swap out my Cobra starter tomorrow and try it out for a bit. If it still sux then I can bypass the starter problem and look elsewhere.

 

[4dStang]

Could a bad ignition switch have anything to do with this? I have had problems in the past on foxes with the ignition sw not making a proper connection and no turnover.

Any experience or a second on that switch?

 

[4dStang]

bump

 

[HISSIN50]

sorry if i missed something in this, but here goes. you are positive that the grounds are up to snuff (remember resistance in wires goes up with temp). one can use a jumper cable as an additional wire for testing purposes. when it wont start, the solenoid generally clicks? sounds like it (suggesting the ignition switch and starter interlock devices are working and allowing the 12 volt trigger to make it to the solenoid coil).

have you had the battery load tested? though it is newer and all that, i would have that done. should take a minute and be free. i would probably do that before swapping starters.

good luck.

 

[wht93gtEd]

my neighbor had a similar problem. his car wouldn't start all the time, only sometimes. The only time that it started consistently was when it was hooked up to a battery charger & the charger was set to "start". It turned out that the battery cables were bad. I'm just throwing out some cheap and easy fixes.

 

[HISSIN50]

It turned out that the battery cables were bad. I'm just throwing out some cheap and easy fixes.

uh oh, he is gonna get mad - he is proud of his new cables.

oh yeah, in my last post, when i talked about resistance going up with heat, i forgot to add that: have you checked the battery to starter cable (the load carrying cable)?

good luck.

 

[4dStang]

I just replaced the ignition switch on the column. That was the trick. I never would have thought about it had I not had a previous experience with a fox body ign sw. The car starts like it is new now. My only problem is that I spent so much to get this car running and all it was was a $16 part. @^#^##%#^%#&%(_*+). Need I say more! Hey hissin, I have beautiful ground cables by the way. Gold plated terminals and 4 ga wire. Much better than stock.


Thanks for all the help. Now I have to fix the damn squeeky suspension that the body shop left me after the little boo boo some female left me a few months ago. At least now I have a new starter, alternator and wiring. I guess I'll sell it now. Or at least try. Thanks again, ya'll helped me solve it.


Cheers!!!!

 

[HISSIN50]

yep, in reading the novel(s) i saw that and your pointing the new cable out to someone else.

nice work.

 

[4dStang]

I actually have two posts on this now.

But, I got up this morning after installing the ign switch. The car did not start after running for 5 minutes. It just turns over at a crawl like the solonoid is not contacting. But I have installed THREE starters and the original did the same. I am doubting the starter, Cables are the best you can make, battery may be a little low, but last night after installing the switch, it fired up ten times with NO problem. I wake up and it started, ran it in the garage for 3-5 minutes, shut it down and it would not restart. WTF!!!!!!

Its killing me. I have gone through all the basics. Is there a fuse or a relay that would be poorly connected? I don't know, when I get home tonight I am going to pull the starter and battery and bench test it in a vice with some jumper cables. Thank god for klonipin! Saved a few dents today!

 

[jrichker]

Some more things to think about. Pay particular attention to the voltage drop section of the test path...

Here's a checklist:

Since some of the tests will bypass the safety interlocks, make sure that the car is in neutral and the parking brake is set. Becoming a pancake isn’t part of the repair process…

Check battery, terminal connections, ground, starter relay switch (also known as solenoid) and starter in that order.

A voltmeter is handy if you are familiar with how to use it to find bad connections. Measure the voltage drop across a connection: more than .5 volts across a connection indicates a problem.
See http://www.fluke.com/application_notes/automotive/circuit.asp?AGID=1&SID=103 for help

1.) Will the car start if it is jumped? Then clean battery terminals and check battery.

2.) Check the battery to engine block ground, and the ground behind the engine to the firewall.

3.) Then pull the small push on connector (red wire) off the starter relay (Looks like it is stuck on a screw). Then jump between the screw and the terminal that is connected to the battery. If it starts, the relay is good and your problem is in the rest of the circuit.

4.) Remember to check the ignition switch, neutral safety switch on auto trans and the clutch safety switch on manual trans cars. If they are good, then the relay is bad. See http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/gif/large/0900823d80195963.gif for 88-90 year cars .OR see http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/gif/large/0900823d80195964.gif for 91-93 year cars. See http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiB..._us/0900823d/80/1d/db/3c/0900823d801ddb3c.jsp for 94-95 model cars.

5.) Jump the big terminals on the starter relay next to the battery with a screwdriver - watch out for the sparks! If the engine cranks, the starter and power wiring is good. The starter relay is also known as a starter solenoid.

6.) The starter may be hung, loosen up the bolts that hold it on, and give it a good whack with a big hammer. Tighten up the bolts and try again.

7.) If that doesn't work, use a jumper cable from the positive lead on the battery direct to the starter post where the big wire from the relay connects. If it cranks then, it is the power wire from the relay gone bad. This will be hard to do, since there isn't much room to do it.

8.) Pull the starter and take it to Autozone or Pep Boys and have them test it. Starter fails test, then replace it. If you got this far, the starter is probably bad.

 

[Vipersix]

Do as jrichker says. He is obviously very knowledgable.

And just to throw my $.02 in the pot... double check every single GROUND connection between the battery and the starter and the alternator. What you are describing happened to me in just about the exact same way. I went through a couple starters and hours of frustration until I found a ground that I KNEW was good was in fact broken.

Physically TEST every ground cable with a volt meter. It'll pay in the end.

 

[88GTsocal]

Hey guys,

I have a 95 Gt that is kicking my butt. I am pretty sharp on fixing problems but this one has me STUMPED. I have tested various components and hope that all the info will help some one help me to get this worked out.

Heres the deal:
Car will start up in the morning but when I drive for say ten to twenty minutes, stop and try to restart it slows to start or does not start at all.

-Last week I put in the third starter.
-Two weeks before I put in a new alternator
-Alt puts out 13.47 V @ the battery posts
-Alt puts out 14.40V @ the alternator post to engine ground
-Starter starts sometimes if I jump the posts
-Had the battery tested at autozone, tested good under load. It is a
Motorcraft battery and no so old.
-Made new starter cables out of 4 GA wire with crimped gold terminals.
-Made new ground wires out of 4 GA with crimped gold terminals and cleaned
the paint at the connection for a good connection
-Did not replace ignition wire to starter
-Made a new chassis to block ground
-Battery voltage sits at 12.23V
-Car runs with battery disconnected

I think I tested everything but something is missing in my trouble shooting.
I would REALLY appreciate it if I could get some second opinions on any other things to check or if one of my components are low or bad.

Thanks guys.

The charging voltage at the battery should be the same as it is at the alt. You have a 1 volt drop between the two. Not good. Also the battery voltage with car off should be 12.6v. If you have 12.23v then it is only about 70% charged. I suggest you rectify these problems before you proceed.

 

[4dStang]

Do as jrichker says. He is obviously very knowledgable.

And just to throw my $.02 in the pot... double check every single GROUND connection between the battery and the starter and the alternator. What you are describing happened to me in just about the exact same way. I went through a couple starters and hours of frustration until I found a ground that I KNEW was good was in fact broken.

Physically TEST every ground cable with a volt meter. It'll pay in the end.

Seems as though the new block ground cable I installed was not grounding. I moved it to another spot from the stock spot by the oil filter and BAM, starts every time. So now I feel overworked and a little dumb. I actually took the starter and the battery out used some jumper cables and a solonoid wire to start it and it spun up every time. All was all perfect. As soon as I got the starter spinning every time, I knew it was the block to battery ground. There was some corrosion on the block plate too that I wire wheeled off so that may have been a contributing factor. So consider this problem closed. Once again, I owe all a beer for the help. Thanks to all!!!!!



Now I am happy as a drunk sailor!