Recommend me a camshaft

SadbutTrue · May 5, 2008

woodsnake said:
I have 'cams' in two of my cars.
When I bought the cam for my 69 Coug, is was part of a package parts deal. Apparently another guy had bought these parts (cam&lifters, intake and timing gear set) and couldn't get them to 'fit' in the engine. I got all the parts for less than the cost of the intake. It was a comp cams 'extreme' 519/524 (as I recall from Germany..)
I swapped out the parts, and didn't like the way it worked at all! When I bought it all, I told the guy I didn't want to have to change the gears or torque converter. "No problem, don't worry, you're gonna love it!"
After a 3500 stall TC, and 3.89's in the rear, it's a real hoot around town, no more freeway driving until I rebuid the heads. It goes thru a quart on the interstate in less than a hundred miles.
My other car, my 68 4sp, has an Edelbrock cam. 496/520 specs. (see the how wicked is your cam thread.)
I have had a massive learning curve with that motor! I've been thru two sets of roller rockers, and am on my third set of pushrods. Two complete head 'rebuilds'. (Thanks MR. Machine shop "Subject matter expert").

I bought all my new parts thru summit.
For the money with my gray car, I could have had a custom cam, and new aluminum heads with all I now have invested in the stock cast irons, with all the other parts as well.
My 69 351W however, with 'more cam', has all stock rockers, springs and push rods, and hasn't broken anything!
I have one more cam in a box, waiting for my next 289 project, and after that, customs only!

For the money, you get so much more than just a stick.

That first cam sounds like the 274XE that Comp Cams recommended. Second one is definitely the performer RPM. I'm not confident that the 274 (or RPM) would be happy with my gears in OD on the freeway, so I'm leaning towards the 268xe right now.

How long does it take to get a custom camshaft done and delivered? How much more does it actually cost?

I'm not in a rush and I wouldn't mind paying a bit extra for piece of mind, but I do like how I don't have to do as much research if i buy from compcams (them having the recommended timing set, pushrods, and lifter combination listed makes life easy...).

SadbutTrue · May 5, 2008

On a more general note, about a few specific parts that i'll need to make the 268 or 274xe work in my car...

1) I won't need a new distributor gear will I? Mine is pretty new (but stock) and compcams' gears are all about $120... which seems extreme. If I don't need a new one, I don't want it.

2) Regarding pushrods... compcams' catalog lists a part # for pushrods that will work with this setup (942-16 or 972-16 for hardened ones). Can I trust that listing or should I count on needing to verify it with a pushrod length checker?

3) From another thread, my heads were originally designed for roller cams but (obviously) that will not be the case here. Is there anything else I need to do to these heads (or to anything else) to make sure my Trick Flow TW TFS-51400005 heads work with this cam/engine configuration?

4) On a more general note, with a heads/cam/carb/intake upgrade... should I expect to have to upgrade the fuel pump? With the more aggressive cam I'll probably want it to try to idle a bit faster too right?

5) I just found out the heads I got actually have the upgraded Trick Flow springs good to .600 lift. If that changes anyone's suggestions...

D.Hearne · May 5, 2008

The Comp cams you picked are flat tappets. If that's what you have now....... no change in the distributor. As for your springs you have now, just compare the open/closed specs, as long as they're close, again.......no change. Pushrods? The ones you now have will likely work with the new cam, just check the geometry once everything's in place to be sure. Fuel pump? It doesn't take much flow to feed a N/A application with a carb. I'm doing a 30 gal/hr with two motors, one with three carbs.

htwheelz67 · May 6, 2008

if you plan on an XE cam, you should get the matching springs, they have extremely fast ramps......and you will gain alot using the proper springs, valvetrain stability can add lots of power.

woodsnake · May 7, 2008

To reiterate, had I known when I ordered my Edelbrock cam all the CRAP that would happen, I would have been BIG money ahead with the custom. Try and give this a read....

http://www.camshaftinnovations.com/Build.htm

PS, yes you should still measure and verify correct push rod length!!

When "most" folks order a cam they don't do it with a goal in mind, or have any real understanding of how the new cam will change everything.
Sure, you can get a mild cam out of a box, and usually bolt it in, and notice a gain in performance.
However, to take full advantage of your new purchase, and maximize your potential requires a bit more effort.
It all depends on what you want. But, I don't think any body is ever un happy because the car "just makes too much power!"

I don't want to sound condescending, this is just my opinion. And, you seem like you are trying to make an informed decision, I'm just trying to point out some different views on the subject....

D.Hearne · May 7, 2008

woodsnake said:
To reiterate, had I known when I ordered my Edelbrock cam all the CRAP that would happen, I would have been BIG money ahead with the custom

When "most" folks order a cam they don't do it with a goal in mind, or have any real understanding of how the new cam will change everything.

However, to take full advantage of your new purchase, and maximize your potential requires a bit more effort.
It all depends on what you want. But, I don't think any body is ever un happy because the car "just makes too much power!"

I don't want to sound condescending, this is just my opinion. And, you seem like you are trying to make an informed decision, I'm just trying to point out some different views on the subject....

Your choice of the Edelbrock cam tells me you did just what you seem to think everyone who picks a cam on his own does. Not everyone makes cam choices like you did. Edelbrock makes great intakes, but their cam selection is what for a small block? The answer to that is exactly "two" Two cam grinds to pick from There are dozens of off the shelf grinds to pick from, anyone who understands how an engine works and behaves with different parts can make an intelligent cam selection from what's out there. What's to say a custom cam from two different companies will result in the same output ? Or will perform better than an off the shelf grind, (chosen wisely) And take Ford Racing's cam selection, you think they have any less engineering behind them than a custom cam does? If you believe that, then you've got a lot to learn. Even the lowly "H.O." roller cam and the 93 Cobra cam's had many hours worth of engineering behind them. A custom cam is simply a higher priced cam grind, that was picked out by someone who undertstands how an engine works. And these guys who do that are no different than you or I. They've just taken the time to learn this stuff and put it to use.

SadbutTrue · May 7, 2008

Is there an easy way to see how the Trick Flow .600 springs that come on the heads compare to the springs Comp Cams recommends?

D.Hearne · May 7, 2008

Try Trick flow's website, and see if they list the spring specs somewhere. Then compare to Comp's spring specs. If you have the Comp spring numbers, I can look up the specs in my catalog.

woodsnake · May 7, 2008

"To reiterate, had I known when I ordered my Edelbrock cam all the CRAP that would happen, I would have been BIG money ahead with the custom. "

Yes, for this motor, I read all the books, had a manual transmission, and thought, that looks like a good street performance cam. I was not looking for a 10 second quarter mile.

But, with the custom I would have got the right springs and valves the first time, rather than lining the pockets of my machine shop operator and SUMMIT, just because I'm a nice guy.

I believe a custom cam has better manufacturing behind it, and that each cylinder will be the same, where as an OTB may not be exact. And that the guy who can make a camshaft that works well will also know how to maximize his product, rather than just reading part numbers.

I believe the Edelbrock cam I have will be fine for what I want. But since I built that first motor, I've had a lot of learning curves, and am trying to point out other options, that will provide better overall satisfaction than just buying stuff from the catalog.
Isn't that why we are here, to share knowledge and experience?

brianj5600 · May 7, 2008

D.Hearne said:
And take Ford Racing's cam selection, you think they have any less engineering behind them than a custom cam does?

Aren't the alphabet cams 20 or so years old? Did the Ford engineers design it for E7 heads or TF heads? It seems like Pro Stocks were running mid to high 7's at the time. No, we are not talking Pro Stocks here, but that shows that the performance world has not been frozen in time. Do you think Pro Stocks are using the same cam as they did 20 years ago?

D.Hearne · May 7, 2008

brianj5600 said:
Aren't the alphabet cams 20 or so years old? Did the Ford engineers design it for E7 heads or TF heads? It seems like Pro Stocks were running mid to high 7's at the time. No, we are not talking Pro Stocks here, but that shows that the performance world has not been frozen in time. Do you think Pro Stocks are using the same cam as they did 20 years ago?

OK, then how much can you change a cam's profile in those 20 years ? You've only got a circle of lobe base with maybe 1/4-1/2 of that to work with. The Alphabet cams may be that old but they still work. And how do you know the ProStocks aren't using the same cams? You build em?And I'm 100% positive the gains made in ProStock racing wasn't only due to the cam grinds. E7 heads weren't the only heads around twenty years ago either.

86bluecobra · May 7, 2008

SadbutTrue said:
Compcams just recommended the 274XE, for reference. The 268 would be a good compromise in general.

I'm okay with more high end than low end... my tranny doesn't need any off idle torque than necessary.

Any competing companies grind #s that I should look at?

Thats the cam I run in my 351w. It works quite well at 1800 rpm. Thats about cruising speed in my mustang. I had the xe268 in my car but pulled it for the xe 274. It works very nicely imo.

brianj5600 · May 7, 2008

You are right D.Hearne. Nothing has been learned in the last 20 years. A cam is a cam. It does not matter what motor it is in or what induction. All it does is open the valves. It does not matter when, how fast or anything else as long as the valve opens and closes.

D.Hearne · May 7, 2008

Y'all seem to think there's some kind of magic potion the custom cam guys have here. You don't think the major cam grinders haven't done the same research? You think they've gotten where they are without doing something in that regard ? The only way you'll ever reach perfection in cam choice is to build a dyno mule, then start trying different cam grinds and watch the results. (which by the way is what the big cam companies, and the auto manufacturers have done for years) Even then, that's no garantee it'll behave that way when you drop the finished product in a vehicle and subject it to real life driving. And then you'll have to start tweaking the vehicle to achieve the results you thought you had on the dyno. It's truly a never ending process. Hence, there's no reason a well thought out cam choice can't do what you want, when picked from off the shelf grinds. But it's your money. Just don't sit there and tell us, who have more than an inkling of what cam grind we want, is a dumb choice when we find what we need in an off the shelf grind. The custom cam grinders have simply found a niche market in people that have bought into their sales pitches, they play into your fears that, that cam you picked is "missing something" I've never run across a customer of theirs that's ever admitted they spent the extra money needlessly either. That's either because they found what they thought they wanted or are afraid to admit they made a mistake.

SadbutTrue · May 8, 2008

DH - Summit gave me this about a month ago re: the Trick Flow spring specs:

The TFS-51400005 head would have left Trick Flow with a 1.460" spring installed in the head. New this spring would have had 125 lbs seat pressure at an installed height of 1.800", and 376 lbs at 1.180" open, 420 lbs/inch, 0.600" max lift. You would want to compare those specifications with the spring recommended for the cam you wish to use

86bluecobra - thats what I like to hear. So you'd say the 274xe is a daily-driverable cam? What gears do you have (i really don't want to swap out my 3.25s if I don't have to, besides the economy 3.55s or 3.73s will make 1st gear completely useless while putting more strain on the drivetrain)?

D.Hearne · May 8, 2008

Springs for the XE268H: 942 or 972 The 942's are listed at 115/284 (closed/open)with a rate of 339 lbs/in. The 972's are 125/308 with a rate of 328. Now if you're looking at the XE274H, the springs change to the 986 or 987 which are (986) 132/280 with a rate of 296. And the 987's are 121/388 with a rate of 344. The 942/972's are single with a damper, the 986/987 are dual springs. If you run the 274 with a dual plane intake, I think it'll be fine on the street. There's not a lot of difference between it and the 268 anyway. One's just a step above the other.

SadbutTrue · May 8, 2008

D.Hearne said:
Springs for the XE268H: 942 or 972 The 942's are listed at 115/284 (closed/open)with a rate of 339 lbs/in. The 972's are 125/308 with a rate of 328. Now if you're looking at the XE274H, the springs change to the 986 or 987 which are (986) 132/280 with a rate of 296. And the 987's are 121/388 with a rate of 344. The 942/972's are single with a damper, the 986/987 are dual springs. If you run the 274 with a dual plane intake, I think it'll be fine on the street. There's not a lot of difference between it and the 268 anyway. One's just a step above the other.

Well, i'm assuming that means, at least for the xe274h's premium springs, that the Trick Flow springs are about 80 lbs/in stiffer (but the open/close pressures are very close... the compcams premium springs, unless thats a typo on the '388' closed for the 987s, is actually higher). Will that kill the performance of the part or is that acceptable?

D.Hearne · May 8, 2008

80 lbs doesn't sound like much but with a flat tappet cam, it may very well be more than you'd want in terms of lobe/lifter wear. If you were going with a roller cam, I'd leave em be. I think I'd go lighter on the springs if I were you. You're not looking to rev it to the moon, so there's no need to over stress the cam lobes.

SadbutTrue · May 8, 2008

Yeah i was leaning the same way. Might be why they say all over the summit listing for that part # that its meant for roller cams.

Was that 388 a typo (288 would make more sense with the rest of the numbers... though it could be 388 i suppose)?

D.Hearne · May 8, 2008

Nope, that's what Comp's catalog says 121@1.800 and 388 @ 1.200, of course thats .600 of lift, the 986 specs are 132 @ 1.75 & 280 @ 1.25, which is .500 lift. Might be worth while to learn what the pressure is at your actual lift. Then again with all the cam failures of late, why push it if you don't need the extra pressure that you won't need to rev it with ?

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