I am installing a 1985 2.3 out of a Mustang into a 1967 Sunbeam Alpine. We were discussing Electro Magnetic Pulse and electrical storms knocking out electronic ignitions. I thought installing an old points dizzy might fix that if it happened, because no module is needed and the complete system is mechanical. Can a 1974 (The last year the 2.3 had points) dizzy be dropped into an 85 2.3? I have one and it drops in and seems to operate the oil pump but the later dizzy shaft is longer. After much research on TFI, Duraspark, HEI and modern ignitions, it appears they are much better than points...but only above 3000 RPM. Below that the points works fine. Just a discussion starter.
Retrofit a point distributor
- Thread starter Charlie Cheap
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you can drop the points distributor into a later 2.3l pinto engine, the distributors interchange nicely. but i think you are doing it for the wrong reasons. an electrical storm is not going to knock out the ignition system anytime ever, if it would then any car made after 1985 would be having serious issues everytime there was an electrical storm. sa for EMP bursts, they will knock out any electrical system that has power to it and is not hardened against such a burst, even your older point type ignition systems are not immune to such a burst. the rest of the electrical system including the battery will also end up dead.
rbohm, my reason for the retro-fit is not to avoid an EMP, but simplicity and the fact the Sunbeam has a very small engine compartment (think HEAT). Yes, the module should be inside the interior but that means longer wires and more of them. A well built points system with a hotter coil, better plugs and the best available cap, rotor, cond. and wires, will take a modern street engine to about 4800 rpm with ease, and with an A4LD and 14" tires (taller), highway rpm should be in the 2800/3700 rpm range. Today's modules are much better than the Ford Duraspark from the 70's that gave so much heat trouble (we kept a spare module in the trunk and the wife knew how to swap it with 2 molex plugs and 2 screws. It sounds goofy but points work fine at everyday speeds, but require more maintenance. The average Joe/Jane do not want to mess with points, and since today's FI requires a computer, why not tie the ignition-fuel-air to one brain. I will soon be 75 and built my own dizzy for decades with dual points (increase dwell) and many single points for the street with vacuum advance. After reading a study several years ago that showed points work fine up to about 3500 rpm, and with a hot coil they can deliver a very good spark to the plugs, I just wondered if the old dizzy would work. THANKS for the OKAY in that area. My 65 Mustang SIX cylinder has a points dizzy with a PerTronix but I have points in the glove-box just in case.
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Swapping the old distributor out for a dual-point used to be the hot ticket, but that was long ago.
I'm hard pressed to accept any argument in favor of running points today unless concourse is your goal. I see the bit about simplifying the wiring, that is a good goal (but not worth the downsides of using points IMO), so while you're at it get a 1-wire alternator in there.
I'm hard pressed to accept any argument in favor of running points today unless concourse is your goal. I see the bit about simplifying the wiring, that is a good goal (but not worth the downsides of using points IMO), so while you're at it get a 1-wire alternator in there.
Edbert, when one builds drivers from the frame up, it is comforting to know the ignition is very capable of lighting-off the air-fuel mixture totally, up to about 90 mph. No matter what you may have read, MSD, HEI, TFI or any electronic ignition is NOT better below about 3000 rpm, depending on certain factors. I never had to help a points triggered ignition guy beside the road...but I have on several occasions, with cars that had electronic ignitions. An accidental touch of the wrong wire can kill a module. Fuel injection is better than a carburetor and electronic ignition is better than points, and that is a fact. The question is, is it always better? For me the answer is definitely NO! At 2:00 AM in Podunk Arkansas, in a 50+ year old car, with a modified engine, DEPENDABILITY is paramount. I will be 75 Oct. 4 and I am an ASE mechanic, also certified in "small engines", I have a degree in electronics, I am a federally licensed gunsmith, and I have built more cars than I can remember. Many have won shows and my 32 Ford coupe ran all over the southwest without trouble and was a feature-car in several magazines. It had a 289 with C4 automatic and points ignition. Points can be made better than stock with the best parts (cap, rotor, points, condenser, wires and plugs). Add a hot coil and with a well built engine, it will run great. OH, I still have a "Flip-Phone" and seldom use it because I still work and see no need to talk to someone every half-hour. After a very rich man saw my 1940 Ford coupe, he built me a 4-bay shop in my backyard so I could cars just for him.
Did not intend to insult or touch any nerves here.
I appreciate the "below 3,000 RPM" comment, that is where engines spend most of their time, and thus the range you should build a driver for. I'm what I'd call old too, but only 54. Not a certified mechanic (maybe on computers and networks) but I'm not a total newb. I replaced a clutch when I was 14, hoping to get the car driving by the time I turned 15 and got my license. Ever since then I owned a car that I needed to work on regularly to keep it on the road and get to work 5 days a week. That latter part sorta changed at one stage, and I owned several cars that I'd never turn a wrench one. But with the old Mustangs....I've spent the last years (too many to want to admit to) building an old car from the "frame" (yeah yeah unibody I know) up, albeit with a great deal of trouble on multiple issues.
I think you have a good point about the purpose of the car as well. I consider mine an RV, only driven on weekends (maybe to work on a really nice day a few times per year) and to the local car show (just a parking lot) on some Saturdays. I did put an MSD distributor and 6AL ignition, but I also replaces 100% of the wiring in the car and did the modern 1-wire alternator and removed all the external voltage regulators. But I gotta say, I've adjusted/cleaned/tuned a set of points more times than I even like thinking of. Perhaps when I finally get finished building up my old girl (is that possible?) I'll yearn for having a reason to go out there and work on it. For now I just want it to start when I turn the key, always be an good (maybe not perfect?) tune, and if my car is ever out on the road at 2:00AM that just means it is stolen!
TLDR: I'm sorry and points are best if reliability is a top concern
:-D
I appreciate the "below 3,000 RPM" comment, that is where engines spend most of their time, and thus the range you should build a driver for. I'm what I'd call old too, but only 54. Not a certified mechanic (maybe on computers and networks) but I'm not a total newb. I replaced a clutch when I was 14, hoping to get the car driving by the time I turned 15 and got my license. Ever since then I owned a car that I needed to work on regularly to keep it on the road and get to work 5 days a week. That latter part sorta changed at one stage, and I owned several cars that I'd never turn a wrench one. But with the old Mustangs....I've spent the last years (too many to want to admit to) building an old car from the "frame" (yeah yeah unibody I know) up, albeit with a great deal of trouble on multiple issues.
I think you have a good point about the purpose of the car as well. I consider mine an RV, only driven on weekends (maybe to work on a really nice day a few times per year) and to the local car show (just a parking lot) on some Saturdays. I did put an MSD distributor and 6AL ignition, but I also replaces 100% of the wiring in the car and did the modern 1-wire alternator and removed all the external voltage regulators. But I gotta say, I've adjusted/cleaned/tuned a set of points more times than I even like thinking of. Perhaps when I finally get finished building up my old girl (is that possible?) I'll yearn for having a reason to go out there and work on it. For now I just want it to start when I turn the key, always be an good (maybe not perfect?) tune, and if my car is ever out on the road at 2:00AM that just means it is stolen!
TLDR: I'm sorry and points are best if reliability is a top concern
:-D
Edbert, No need to be sorry! I take all replies to my posts as possible "learning" information. You are definitely correct about having a modern electronic ignition if one is looking for the best they can get. Ford, GM, Chrysler and all the others have made the switch, and they do not do things just for funzies! I am looking at points only as a way to keep things SIMPLE...like me. I can fix them any time any place. And with all the spare parts in the trunk for under $50.00. I come from the Dallas housing projects and my wife of 52 years is an orphan and we got married on $50.00 of borrowed money. My nickname is Charlie Cheap but I have built many Street Rods for very rich men, and those cars have won major awards...not because I started out good but because I had several car SUPER BUILDERS teach me. One built cars for the Gas Monkey show and a different guy painted the beautiful Blue Max Funny Car. I have been blessed with people who were willing to show me...when I asked.If the air/fuel mixture is right a blow torch is not needed if a SPARK will do. I NEVER intended my reply to be an insult to you. Sometimes "new" is seen as the best possible, when it is simply "better". But even the old can be improved upon. THAT is what I tried to convey. Also, I write a column for a newspaper yet I left out the word BUILD in my earlier post. Being old does not make me smarter than younger people...just more experienced. And I still make mistakes.
i will disagree with that statement. i had a 66 falcon 170/3spd that would have a hard time starting in decent weather with the stock point ignition, regardless of how well i tuned it. i swapped over to an electronic ignition that i cobbled together using a duraspark distributor, chrysler ignition box(the high performance orange street box), and an msd blaster lll coil. after that was installed, that engine would light off first time even in sub 20 degree weather.
rbohm, your 66 Falcon problem was not with the points ignition, unless it was out of tune. The Ford ignition was a Load-A-Matic that required the carb./distributor to be matched. Rather than manifold vacuum "ported" vacuum was required and it had to be from a special type carburetor. Many years ago I had a 1932 Ford coupe with a 289 and points ignition. We had contests to see if a car would start by simply flipping the key to the on position. It would. No doubt modern ignitions are better overall than points, but do not sell the old points system short...it drove our cars for over 70 years, and I drove points ignitions all over the US in Street Rods. A properly tuned points system carried me and my cars all over the United States with NO problems. Not fancy, not high-tech, not modern, not mysterious or magic with electrons doing things inside modules we can't see, but simple mechanical switching...that works.
At one time years ago we had a 2.3 1986 Mustang with a problematic "feedback" carburetor. Instead of fooling with it I wanted to run a Weber "progressive" 2 barrel I happened to have at the time. After fitting the carburetor the ignition computer was unhappy and the car would often backfire after being shut off. It so happens a friend had an extra points distributor from a 1973 or so Mustang II. I put that in and my wife drove it that way for a couple of years. We even road tripped it up the east coast. We still have the car but now it sports a 5.0 and Duraspark. The 2.3 got recycled into a Ranger that had thrown a rod and kept on going.
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