Royal Purple???

HISSIN50 said:

Not to disagree, but per Redline's tech line, D4 is what is recommended for WC T5's. That said, I seem to recall some well-known trans guys in the business saying they like MTL. Even in the desert, I chose to run D4 (I wanted to run MTL because of the heat here). There's a reason D4 was created.

And it's been some time since I checked (definitely correct me if needed), but ST oil is a GP III+ oil. While a great quality oil for the money (I run it in some of the cars here myself), it's not a PAO basestock as far as I know.

Random thoughts that really dont matter.

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They say that for low temp's. They also say that the MTL works better for racing or hard use. So unless you drve your stang in very cold weather I would use the MTL. It gives better protection. I forgot about this because I live in a area with a pretty mild climate. I guess if stayed below freezing and you drive your stang in it, I would go with the D4 or ATF synthetic.

Right I don't think ST is a PAO basestock oil. It's Pennzoil or Quaker state. But It's better than petro oil for about a buck more a quart. I wouldn't run it in my Saleen, but in my pickup yeah

S351Saleen77 said:

They say that for low temp's. They also say that the MTL works better for racing or hard use. So unless you drve your stang in very cold weather I would use the MTL. It gives better protection. I forgot about this because I live in a area with a pretty mild climate. I guess if stayed below freezing and you drive your stang in it, I would go with the D4 or ATF synthetic.

Right I don't think ST is a PAO basestock oil. It's Pennzoil or Quaker state. But It's better than petro oil for about a buck more a quart. I wouldn't run it in my Saleen, but in my pickup yeah

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Hmmmm, I specifically wanted to run MTL (as said, I live in the desert, with ambient temps often around 110*F) and was staunchly told not to. D4 was created for this application and my interpretation was that it was for a reason (a search about MTL in T5's and T56's can be revealing).

It might all depend upon whom we happen to speak to at Redline. I guess the point from either of us would be for the individual to thoroughly research which product is best for his/her application.

It's been some time since I read up on ST oil but I remember some scuttlebutt about an alliance with Exxon some time back. People were curious what the VOA's of the new oil would look like compared to Exxon's other products. Again, none of it makes a bit of difference really (I care about this stuff and still didn't care enough to follow through and confirm the above-scuttlebutt).

gm syncromesh=best fluid for m/t's that take atf

badstang123 said:

Often times you can go longer between oil changes with better oils. Their ability to suspend contaminants is better, as well as how quickly they breakdown, allowing you to leave it in their for longer. One example would be with your regular Mobile 1 compared to synthetic. I've talked to a Mobile 1 representative on the tech line about it and he said every 3,000 with regular but every 7,500 with synthetic. Other high end companies like Royal Purple, Redline, and Amsoil are even better than that. I wouldn't extend it further than 7,500 miles but you get the idea. My vote goes for Amsoil as well. It's a little more but a far superior product.
- Justin

Edit: How about 15K-25K intervals?

http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/atm.aspx

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Exactly you save in the long run (in most cases)

bimmertech said:

gm syncromesh=best fluid for m/t's that take atf

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I run that in my TKO and it works great.

HISSIN50 said:

Hmmmm, I specifically wanted to run MTL (as said, I live in the desert, with ambient temps often around 110*F) and was staunchly told not to. D4 was created for this application and my interpretation was that it was for a reason (a search about MTL in T5's and T56's can be revealing).

It might all depend upon whom we happen to speak to at Redline. I guess the point from either of us would be for the individual to thoroughly research which product is best for his/her application.

It's been some time since I read up on ST oil but I remember some scuttlebutt about an alliance with Exxon some time back. People were curious what the VOA's of the new oil would look like compared to Exxon's other products. Again, none of it makes a bit of difference really (I care about this stuff and still didn't care enough to follow through and confirm the above-scuttlebutt).

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Interesting, If you go to Redline's website and look at the tech info for the MTL it says why manuf recommended ATF because of poor cold weather shifting of petroleum gear oils. So they use petro ATF to eliminate this. They go on to tell how a ATF cannot protect in a manual trans as well. They talk about shearing of the oil. So a guy at Redline told you not to use it in your tranny? If so I wonder why they say what they do on their website?


I sent my tranny across the country to Bob Hanlon who is a Tremec guru. I did this because local tranny shops couldn't get it right. I asked him what he recommends and he said Redline MTL. At the time Amsoil didn't make a MTL or I would have run that. I guess if you feel better running ATF I would run that. If it was me in your hot weather I would run MTL. I run it and have never had a problem yet.

Mercon is specified in WC T5's for amongst other reasons, the needle-bearings. In what I just double-checked (http://redlineoil.com/whitePaper/13.pdf ) it says that for applications calling for Mercon or Dexron, D4 is called for. I also saw similar text in the product descriptions. How does this compare to what you read?

Hanlon is the one guy I know-of who likes MTL - you are not the first to note his like of the product. Very few hold a candle to him or DW Sr with T5 info - I'm sure he has his reasons for running MTL.

But in your first post, you noted that the guy would want MTL saying,

"MTL that is made for manual transmissions that take automatic tranny fluid."

This is the blanket statement I disagreed with. Using MTL in WC T5's is not common (it was some years back).

I dont pretend to be a chemical engineer, nor did I stay at a HIE last night - I go with what the fluid manufacturers recommend. I think MTL is supposed to be around an SAE 70-80, and I'm not comfortable with recommending a fluid with that kind of viscosity as something for everyone to run. Some guys run 10W-30 motor oil and swear by it - I sure aint doing it. Just because something can be done does not mean it's correct or the best answer.

As I said before, anyone considering running any fluid needs to research what product will work best for his/her application. I still stand behind D4 being the most 'correct' fluid (amongst it or MTL) for the application. When I have doubts, I talk to the manufacturer and get their opinion, which I did.

i had a hard time puting my trans in first gear and i put rp in and that cleared it right up. and my buddy that is the rp national sales manger told me and it is proven. if you put rp in your motor, trans, and in your rear end you will see at least 10 more horses on the dyno. and you do not have to change it but every 10,000miles. but you have to change the oil filter every 3. my father in law is doing that very test right now and he is at 8,000miles and it has not lost its color and its lubness.

HISSIN50 said:

Mercon is specified in WC T5's for amongst other reasons, the needle-bearings. In what I just double-checked (http://redlineoil.com/whitePaper/13.pdf ) it says that for applications calling for Mercon or Dexron, D4 is called for. I also saw similar text in the product descriptions. How does this compare to what you read?

Hanlon is the one guy I know-of who likes MTL - you are not the first to note his like of the product. Very few hold a candle to him or DW Sr with T5 info - I'm sure he has his reasons for running MTL.

But in your first post, you noted that the guy would want MTL saying,

"MTL that is made for manual transmissions that take automatic tranny fluid."

This is the blanket statement I disagreed with. Using MTL in WC T5's is not common (it was some years back).

I dont pretend to be a chemical engineer, nor did I stay at a HIE last night - I go with what the fluid manufacturers recommend. I think MTL is supposed to be around an SAE 70-80, and I'm not comfortable with recommending a fluid with that kind of viscosity as something for everyone to run. Some guys run 10W-30 motor oil and swear by it - I sure aint doing it. Just because something can be done does not mean it's correct or the best answer.

As I said before, anyone considering running any fluid needs to research what product will work best for his/her application. I still stand behind D4 being the most 'correct' fluid (amongst it or MTL) for the application. When I have doubts, I talk to the manufacturer and get their opinion, which I did.

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When you go to the Redline Oil link you posted which is the same one I have been talking about in previous posts is says ,,,......

"In transmissions which recommend Dextron or Mercon fluids we recommend our D4 ATF which is similar to the MTL, being a GL-4 gear oil also. The D4 ATF will provide better low-temp shiftability, and the MTL would provide better wear protection for racing use." So you just left out the latter saying that MTL actually provides better wear protection, and the D4 ATF better cold weather shiftabity.

As I said before in previous posts the D4 ATF is better for cold weather, they even say that the MTL provides better wear protection for racing use. So if racing use puts more stress and it protects better which one would you choose?? I guess if you lived in Alaska or somewhere where it was below 0 deg all the time I would choose the D4 ATF otherwise I would choose the MTL. If I lived in those climates I would be driving my 4WD F150 not my Saleen in the winter. In a high stress enviroment MTL is better, and like I said before they talk about ATF not having good shear in a Manual trans. Thats why the MTL is made, its better for manual transmissions.

When you say "I am not comfortable recommending a fluid with that kind of viscosity as something for everyone to run" here are some figures from the Redine website. The D4 ATF and the MTL are BOTH rated at 70W 80 in gear oil and 0W 20 vs. 5W 30 in engine oil. With the MTL having a pour point of only -58deg F vs. -76deg for the D4 ATF. Which where I live or from your posts you especially, would that really matter??? They are both rated the same weight in gear oil and the MTL is slightly more in engine oil. So what you said you were not comfortable recommending 70W 80......you are running it yourself.

D4 Redline
SAE grade (Gear oil) 70W 80
SAE grade (Engine oil) 0W 20

MTL Redline
SAE grade (Gear oil) 70W 80
SAE grade (Engine oil) 5W30

The pour points are -76deg for D4 and -58deg for MTL

I have ran my car on the track with 90 deg temps which were probably 110 deg or more on the ground. You could see the heat waves coming up off the track. I would definitely want a little heavier oil. Its not like MTL is thick like STP. I have seen sites where they say not to run MTL also, and they also say not to run "Heavy gear oil" Well D4 ATF and MTL are both rated at 70W 80 in gear oil. I have ran the MTL year round in slightly below freezing temps and have never had cold shifting problems in a daily driver.

So I still stand behind my "Blanket Statement" unless you live in a cold climate. I would recommend MTL for everyone to use in their manual transmissions..Sythetic MTL not petroleum. That is a big factor in this whole discussion. Synthetic oil NOT petroleum.

What is great about this forum is you can agree to disagree. People can read this and take it all in, point and counter point.And decide for themselves. I wish we could both sit down and talk about all this over a few beer's!! Then we could really beat the subject to death!

I am glad all this came up so I can hear another opinion on it. You will always get the people who say why run synthetic in my engine? (They would never dream of putting it in their tranny's or rear ends) Well I remember in the 1980's when Chevy said it would ruin the engine.....and how many years now has the Corvette been factory fill with Moble 1?? or Vipers?? Unbeliveable people still say that here is no difference. I guess if I didn't have so much money in my car I wouldn't care what I put in it, I can get Chevron oil from Shucks for $.49 a quart with a rebate! Throw in a $2 filter from Walmart ( Which is made by Champion Labratories and WAY better than a Fram) and have a change in a 5qt system for $5.50!!! or for me it would be $7. So the guys saying it's a waste of money, well they are wasting their money if they spend over $5.50 an oil change!!!! I run Amsoil series 2000 racing oil with a Canton oil filter. Why? because for me it's worth it. 1qt of oil costs more than what I could change it for in petro oil!

I think you're right - we will have to agree to disagree a bit (if for nothing else on my end than not having the personal experience with MTL to compare it to D4). MTL [on paper] is closer to D4 than I had recollected. I still find it strange that with such relatively close pour points and the like, that D4 was created (this is what the RL Tech told me when I was reiterating my desire to run MTL. There was a need for D4 and it was created [D4 was really new at the time]). With such nice pour points (MTL), why was D4 created at all (for low temp conditions)? This sits funny with me. Thoughts?

I simply chose to error on the side of caution and run the manufacturer-recommended fluid. I don't race but do see the high-ambient temps, and given the synthetic properties of the D4, I'm not real worried about breakdown. I post about what I know and have used, so that was my perspective. However, you are the second respected member on here I've spoken with who ran MTL and liked it, so I might give it a shot next time around.

As you said, we're splitting hairs [I feel]. It indeed would be enjoyable to converse about it and other oil-related subjects over a malted beverage.

I see your point on the engine oil as well. We don't REALLY need synthetics, but they're nice for fudge factor (your track days and my hot ambient temps). I dont like to see dino oil get over ~240*F for too long, which aint too hard to do at all with a 5.0L (esp. for you at the track).

Otherwise, HDEO's are becoming my choice (for the non-synthetic receiving cars). You're right about the Champion labs filters. I havent run across a clicker bypass yet either, so I'm fairly happy with those filters (for other cars. I still use FL1A's).

If I try out the MTL, I'll try to remember to let ya know how it does for me. As an aside, do you know if Mr Hanlon recommends the use of MTL in all T5's, or only on fresh rebuilds (I recall some folks complaining some years back about losing synchros with MTL and used trannies, which was one reason I thought D4 had been developed)?

It's been a pleasurable discussion. Have a Happy Turkey Day!

HISSIN50 said:

I think you're right - we will have to agree to disagree a bit (if for nothing else on my end than not having the personal experience with MTL to compare it to D4). MTL [on paper] is closer to D4 than I had recollected. I still find it strange that with such relatively close pour points and the like, that D4 was created (this is what the RL Tech told me when I was reiterating my desire to run MTL. There was a need for D4 and it was created [D4 was really new at the time]). With such nice pour points (MTL), why was D4 created at all (for low temp conditions)? This sits funny with me. Thoughts?

I simply chose to error on the side of caution and run the manufacturer-recommended fluid. I don't race but do see the high-ambient temps, and given the synthetic properties of the D4, I'm not real worried about breakdown. I post about what I know and have used, so that was my perspective. However, you are the second respected member on here I've spoken with who ran MTL and liked it, so I might give it a shot next time around.

As you said, we're splitting hairs [I feel]. It indeed would be enjoyable to converse about it and other oil-related subjects over a malted beverage.

I see your point on the engine oil as well. We don't REALLY need synthetics, but they're nice for fudge factor (your track days and my hot ambient temps). I dont like to see dino oil get over ~240*F for too long, which aint too hard to do at all with a 5.0L (esp. for you at the track).

Otherwise, HDEO's are becoming my choice (for the non-synthetic receiving cars). You're right about the Champion labs filters. I havent run across a clicker bypass yet either, so I'm fairly happy with those filters (for other cars. I still use FL1A's).

If I try out the MTL, I'll try to remember to let ya know how it does for me. As an aside, do you know if Mr Hanlon recommends the use of MTL in all T5's, or only on fresh rebuilds (I recall some folks complaining some years back about losing synchros with MTL and used trannies, which was one reason I thought D4 had been developed)?

It's been a pleasurable discussion. Have a Happy Turkey Day!

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Redline says "the D4 was designed to satisfy the improved low-temp requirement which will be in the new Dextron IV specs" I think its for this reason in automatic transmissions not manuals. ??

If you go to this link http://www.redlineoil.com/pdf/3.pdf

It shows all the ATF Redline makes. It says on the Synthetic High temp ATF & Synthetic Racing ATF that MTL will have better wear and shiftability. They don't talk about MTL on the D4 section though.

I'm not sure about Hanlon's position of only using on fresh rebuilds??

I would use the FL1A over the Champion lab filter also....and at Walmart they are only a buck more!! I wanted a filter that filtered ALL the oil ALL the time thats why I got a Canton. No bypass and it has a much better micron rating than a standard filter. 8 microns I think? something like that. It was over $100 but then you just change the elements at around $14. You get a nice aluminum filter housing in blue, and if you sell the car just take it with you.....and use it on another someday.

Anyway good opinions on the subject, if you do try it let me know if you can tell any difference.

Have a good turkey day also!!