S197 Mustang ||| Black Box?

shooterm1 said:

does the S197 Mustang have the so-called 'Black Box' that records telemetry data?

If so, where is it located? what are the parameters?

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The only time that live data will be recorded is to take a snap shot of telemetry or live data to aid in driveability and emmisions repairs. We can setup a black box to use for diagnostics and send it with the customer but that is a add on device.

They just had a special on CNN about this now I know what you are talking about. This is a good question cause it seems that there is a possibility there is one on our cars.
Most cars 04 up are equiped with this device called a EDR Event Data Recorder. In the event you are in an accident it records your telemitry (speed) and other info. It can then be used in court to convict you of wrongful driving practice during the event.
It appears there are ppl sitting in jail now cause of this and it is believed that the EDR has produced false information. It is mainly connected to the Airbags so removal of it will make your airbags not function.
If anyone has more info on its location please post up.

What you are referring to in the Mustang specifically is called the Restraint Control Module. It monitors and calculates deployment of the SRS based on variable input factors and mathematical algorithms calculated at the time of impact. Refer to page 81 –84 of your owner's manual as to the specifics of the personal safety system and how it works. It is all math, fellas and even if you believe “Big Brother” is out to get you and your family. It is designed for our safety and for containment of accident and incident related costs in the insurance world. ‘IT IS A BRAVE NEW WORLD’

Has the data been pulled and used in the court of law, yes. Do I agree or disagree: No comment.

I will provide information you are looking for but will caution you that in the absence of logged data into this RCM at the time of impact, you are loading the scales towards fault. Where you think this may fail one day and place you in jail or cost you $, could also be used to assist your family in the event of your death to obtain needed financial assistance under tort laws.

NOTE: The air bag warning lamp illuminates when the RCM fuse is removed and the ignition switch is ON. This is normal operation and does not indicate a supplemental restraint system (SRS) fault.

NOTE: The SRS must be fully operational and free of faults before releasing the vehicle to the customer.

1. Turn all vehicle accessories OFF.
2. Turn the ignition switch to OFF.
3. At the smart junction box (SJB), located in the RH lower kick panel, remove the cover and the restraints control module (RCM) fuse F2.17 (10A) from the SJB. For additional information, refer to the Wiring Diagram Manual.
4. Turn the ignition ON and visually monitor the air bag indicator for at least 30 seconds. The air bag indicator will remain lit continuously (no flashing) if the correct RCM fuse has been removed. If the air bag indicator does not remain lit continuously, remove the correct RCM fuse before proceeding.
5. Turn the ignition switch to OFF.

The front impact severity sensor is located on the radiator support bracket.

The first row side impact sensors (if equipped) are located at or near the base of the B-pillars.

I sincerely hope you look at the statistics involved with these vehicles and this system in relation to news stories you have watched. Remember: News stories are used to promote fear and emotional response. They are rarely analytical to the overall statistical numbers of those people the system has helped and saved since 2004/2005.

Do NOT let fear make your decision for you. Information is power.

~J~

Over the next 2 years every single car that is built and sold in the U.S.A. will need to have a Event Data Recorder. Similar to a "Black Box" on commercial air liners but they do not record your voice. Only a few seconds before and after a crash to determine speed, steering wheel postion, gas pedal and brake pedal position and if your seat belt was engauged.

These devices are being implemented to help determine who is at fault in the rare event of a major collision where someone suffers a serious injury. It'll take the he said / she said argument right out of most circumstances. Also - as of right now a police officer or insurance agent needs a warrant to download the data out of the recorder unless you were doing 100+MPH down a side steet.... that is a whole different conversation.

The "Handbook" does not state any info on the EDR so I assume (I tell my kids not to assume) there is not one on the S197.

Another part (that I left out) is that all manufacturer's are being directed to indicate on the window sticker if a 'black box' exists in said vehicle. I don't know if that is the same for cars that are being sold today though.

The Fang said:

The "Handbook" does not state any info on the EDR so I assume (I tell my kids not to assume) there is not one on the S197.

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I am not sure if "they" (being the all knowing omnipotent Gods of the News world ) are using the terminology "Event Data Recorder" as a blanket generalized term for what is in the vehicle.

We will want Mike (CALLING SVTTECH76 ) to chime in here and an confirm or deny my understanding of this unit, but my limited understanding of the RCM is that it holds a 30 second snap shot of the cyclical data events and input it receives from the various sensors and system equipment. So, recycling of the data occurs every 30 to 60 seconds as it monitors and logs the input data for probable use in the event of an incident it warrants as being severe enough to activate the SRS.

It is not a "recorder" per se, as much as an input snap shot of the data the RCM uses to activate and deploy the system. It is retained for a short-duration cyclical period of time until it cycles again.

The information can be retrieved with a SRS Diagnostic tool and Yes, this information can be used in criminal and tort proceedings if obtained under the appropriate guidelines of Judicial Administrative Law.

The reason why black boxes (EDRs) came about in the first place was the manufacturers wanted to protect themselves from people who did stupid things with their vehicles, crashed them and then tried to blame the manufacturer.

That is a great point...

Ford was just fined 15 MILLION dollars because of the following: 16 year old male driver, Passing at 65+ MPH around a posted 35MPH corned [obvious no passing zone here] // the driver lost control trying to avoid oncoming traffic, drove off the road and then rolled the explorer 8 times (he did not make it)

The parents sued Ford and won!

This issue can be argued in either direction but I think the bottom line is that the end user should be able to disable or write-protect this device if they so desire without any adverse effects (does it cause the airbag to be inoperable as CNN reported if you tamper with said device?). If the court wants to say they think you are at fault in an accident because you disabled the device then that is the chance you should (IMHO) be able to take.

I can understand my employer surveilling my telephone/computer usage but I cannot see my dirt bike surveilling me without my consent, it just seems a bit intrusive and overreaching. I am subject to camera surveillance while on the road, but not in my home, should you be subject to a recording device on your car that you have no control over? While they may want a device to help them lay blame on (or exonerate) you in a wreck, they also let several homes burn before they did anything about the recall on the F150, not to mention the Pinto (BOOM!).

First, it's not a dirt bike. It is a privilege to drive a car, not a right

Second the device is only there to record data when you are involved in an accident. If you don't do "stupid" things on the road, there is nothing to worry about.


A few years ago a Mustang GT crashed on I-696. Some Kid was traveling at 100+ MPH and lost control of his car. It slammed into a overpass and he did not survive. Had he been doing the speedlimit his chances for survival would have greatly increased because he probably would have lost control of his car.

srothfuss said:

First, it's not a dirt bike. It is a privilege to drive a car, not a right

Second the device is only there to record data when you are involved in an accident. If you don't do "stupid" things on the road, there is nothing to worry about.


A few years ago a Mustang GT crashed on I-696. Some Kid was traveling at 100+ MPH and lost control of his car. It slammed into a overpass and he did not survive. Had he been doing the speedlimit his chances for survival would have greatly increased because he probably would have lost control of his car.

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Albeit a car is not a dirtbike (although my streetbike does not have one either), and it is a priveledge to own firearms as well, they do not test fire my guns when i buy them so they can trace the rounds in the event i use the weapon. My boat did not have an EDR on board either to track info. i just think it is a bit too intrusive. Maybe there should be a breathalyzer installed in every vehicle and speed restrictions in place on our cars so they can only go the speed limit and no more. I for one do not want to live in that Orwellian world.

Stupid things are done by all of us all the time, especially by my insane Grandpa when he gets behind the wheel. I still do not think that warrants an electronic footprint of what I am doing for the authorities to peruse.

I too think speed induced accidents are tragic, and should be treated harshly. At the same time it is impossible to record someone applying makeup or talking on their cellphone when such behavior is the cause of an accident.

While I would probably prefer it not to be in my car. I undestand the reasoning behind it. And realize if I do something stupid enough to warrant using the data. I deserve to have it used against me.

SVTdriver said:

While I would probably prefer it not to be in my car. I undestand the reasoning behind it. And realize if I do something stupid enough to warrant using the data. I deserve to have it used against me.

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/thread

Schlitz-420 said:

Albeit a car is not a dirtbike (although my streetbike does not have one either), and it is a priveledge to own firearms as well, they do not test fire my guns when i buy them so they can trace the rounds in the event i use the weapon.

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I think maryland did or still does ballistic fingerprinting, it doesn't prove too effective since it's ridiculously easy to change a ballistic fingerprint in a firearm, Similar firearms have similar fingerprints, and their a lot of firearms sold in other states, or transfered by private sales. Waste of money. These things that make it ineffective aren't things that make a black box in a mustang ineffective though. It worries me. I would have to be going 10 over on the interstate with no one else there and accidentally wreck the car, then get in trouble for something that minor b/c my car told on me.

SVTdriver said:

While I would probably prefer it not to be in my car. I undestand the reasoning behind it. And realize if I do something stupid enough to warrant using the data. I deserve to have it used against me.

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+1

93GrunT said:

I think maryland did or still does ballistic fingerprinting, it doesn't prove too effective since it's ridiculously easy to change a ballistic fingerprint in a firearm, Similar firearms have similar fingerprints, and their a lot of firearms sold in other states, or transfered by private sales. Waste of money. These things that make it ineffective aren't things that make a black box in a mustang ineffective though. It worries me. I would have to be going 10 over on the interstate with no one else there and accidentally wreck the car, then get in trouble for something that minor b/c my car told on me.

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I think you guys are missing the point. I just think the driver should have the choice. I don't think you should go run over little old ladies or cause any other type of accident and expect to be absolved. I think street racing and any risky driving on public roads is both dangerous and stupid. Any fool knows that having chosen not to have this item will actually look worse for the driver in court as we are only left to assume they did not want it so they could drive aggressively and escape blame.

Jenns05Stang said:

I am not sure if "they" (being the all knowing omnipotent Gods of the News world ) are using the terminology "Event Data Recorder" as a blanket generalized term for what is in the vehicle.

We will want Mike (CALLING SVTTECH76 ) to chime in here and an confirm or deny my understanding of this unit, but my limited understanding of the RCM is that it holds a 30 second snap shot of the cyclical data events and input it receives from the various sensors and system equipment. So, recycling of the data occurs every 30 to 60 seconds as it monitors and logs the input data for probable use in the event of an incident it warrants as being severe enough to activate the SRS.

It is not a "recorder" per se, as much as an input snap shot of the data the RCM uses to activate and deploy the system. It is retained for a short-duration cyclical period of time until it cycles again.

The information can be retrieved with a SRS Diagnostic tool and Yes, this information can be used in criminal and tort proceedings if obtained under the appropriate guidelines of Judicial Administrative Law.

Click to expand...

2006 ford mustang service manual said:

The RCM is mounted on the center tunnel under the instrument panel. The RCM:

deploys the air bags in the event of a deployable impact.
activates the safety belt retractor pretensioners to remove slack from the safety belt webbing.
monitors the SRS for faults.
illuminates the air bag warning indicator if a fault is detected.
illuminates the PAD indicator when conditions warrant illumination.
flashes the air bag warning indicator to indicate the lamp fault code (LFC) detected.
communicates through the data link connector (DLC) the current or historical DTCs.
signals the instrument cluster module to activate a chime if the air bag warning indicator is not available and another SRS fault exists.
records deployable and non-deployable impact data.

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I was thinking you guys wanted to know if ford could store this data and tell if you were beating on your car, I did not think of bringing up the RCM

Jenn you are right about the RCM

The RCM will only record crash data. It is not concerned with recording engine sensor data or anything like that. This system is not meant to be a way for ford to look at what you were doing that might have led up to a failure.

There are several reasons why this system is nothing for you guys to worry about.

there is no way for the PCM to sense a base engine failure, the only way the pcm can tell if the engine is damaged is if the damage causes a driveability problem such as misfires. By the time a driveability concern is detected and identified by the PCM the data leading up to it is LONG gone. The PCM has no sensors in the manual trans to sense failure there so how would it know to keep the data recorded by the RCM ( totally different module) auto trans cars do provide feedback so the pcm can detect problems there but it takes awile for the PCM to determine that there is trans slipage and to set a code, the PCM will respond quicker to a electrical fault in the trans. By the time the PCM knows the trans is slipping the data from that 0-100 nitrous blast is long gone.


IF there is a accident even without air bag deployment then the data is stored and can be looked at if.