Roush saleen rip off

S281Cobra said:

Stock 03/04 cobra take a Supercharged S351, sorry not going to happen......

even with my car not stock, I know I can't take a S351 from a standing start especially if it gets hooked up properly, upper rpm is a different story, from roll-ons I was able to keep up with a friends S351.......

So to even say a lightly modified 03/04 cobra can kill a S351 is just plain silly.

As for resale value, S351's hold their value very well, a well maintained car still sells for about what it did a couple of years ago. What tends to appear to skew the pricing are the cars that come up for sale that are really beat-on or damaged and repaired.

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Have you ever raced a 351? I would hope you are doing at least high 12's with your car. Like I said earlier, the fastest time I have seen was a 12.85 from a 351. You might be surprised at what your car could do.

351's have been selling for $25K-28K (ebay/BJ) over the past month. Two years ago they were selling for $37K to $45K.

whosdady said:

Have you ever raced a 351? I would hope you are doing at least high 12's with your car. Like I said earlier, the fastest time I have seen was a 12.85 from a 351. You might be surprised at what your car could do.

351's have been selling for $25K-28K (ebay/BJ) over the past month. Two years ago they were selling for $37K to $45K.

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try re-reading my post.......................

I think the question should be have you ever driven or even rode in a S351?

There is more to a car than the time it takes to travel 1,320 feet from a standstill.

Not that it matters, but I have seen stock S351 Saleens run 12.2s at 120+mph on street tires. It is all in the driver/track prep. In fact, some have dipped into the 12s (12.9, not sure if some have gone faster) with stock S281-SC cars.

saleen's ARE not listed in blue book. if you trade one in at a dealer you wont get squat for it.

S281Cobra said:

try re-reading my post.......................

I think the question should be have you ever driven or even rode in a S351?

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Yes, I have driven a 95 and I almost purchased a 99 S351 which I drove as well. I will say the initial torque was incredible but so was the drop in power around 4.5K rpm. Though the power was increasing to about 5.6K rpm it felt like it had stopped because the initial punch was so significant. Basically the opposite of the cobras that make their power in the higher rpm band. Have you driven a 351 before?

Have you bothered to see what the stock specs are from saleen on the S351? The stock 1/4 mile was 12.75. I'm not sure where you or others are getting your information? (low 12's) As we all know saleen was/is very generous with their hp ratings and 1/4 times. On the oposite side Ford under rated the power of the cobra at 390 hp. I have seen one stock 04 cobra put down 386rwhp and the average is around 370rwhp. I have personally seen a S351 do a 12.85 sec pass and several others do worse. That is not to say I haven't seen an 03/04 cobra do worse. But between the two, the fastest times that I have seen in stock trim have come from cobras.

Again if you re read my statement about cobras killing 351's you will notice that it referenced the resale value. However there is no arguement that the cobra has significantly more power potential and at the very worst equal stock performance.

If any of you have faster times in your stock S351 please post them. I would like to see them. Knowing how generous saleen is with their specs I highly doubt it is possible. Are there S351's with rebuilt motors going low 12's and high 11's??? Yes but those don't count because most of those guys put cams and other goodies in since roughly half of the 351 motors failed. But that is a another topic.

twistedlemon said:

saleen's ARE not listed in blue book. if you trade one in at a dealer you wont get squat for it.

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They are in the bluebook, under "Saleen" as a manufacturer.

whosdady said:

Yes, I have driven a 95 and I almost purchased a 99 S351 which I drove as well. I will say the initial torque was incredible but so was the drop in power around 4.5K rpm. Though the power was increasing to about 5.6K rpm it felt like it had stopped because the initial punch was so significant. Basically the opposite of the cobras that make their power in the higher rpm band. Have you driven a 351 before?

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More then you have...............

twistedlemon said:

saleen's ARE not listed in blue book. if you trade one in at a dealer you wont get squat for it.

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Saleens are listed in the NADA Guides, both in print, and online. Dealers do NOT use the "Kelly Blue Book" values unless they are trying to tell you about how much of a discount they are giving you while they try to sell you a car.

Online at the NADA: http://www.nadaguides.com/uv/selectmake.aspx?LI=1-11-1-2081-0-0-0&Lnk=1&wSec=11&wPr=1&wPg=2028&ct=21

S281Cobra said:

More then you have...............

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I would have to question this. I seriously doubt you have driven more than two different 351's? It sounds to me like you are comparing your personal cobra to the 351 you supposedly raced or drove.

I know your cobra is a speedster which makes it pretty heavy to begin with but are you the guy that added heavy after-market chrome wheels to your cobra? If so that explains a lot. Your car probably weighs close to 4000 lbs. Racing a 351 from a stop would not be a good idea for you. A heavy car like yours has a distinct disadvantage off the line. I bet you would have a hard time with a stock SC off the line. Now I see where you are coming from. I'm guessing your car is a mid 13 sec car. Have you ever taken your car to the strip? Have you seen your friends 351 at the strip? Just curious...

whosdady said:

I would have to question this. I seriously doubt you have driven more than two different 351's? It sounds to me like you are comparing your personal cobra to the 351 you supposedly raced or drove.

I know your cobra is a speedster which makes it pretty heavy to begin with but are you the guy that added heavy after-market chrome wheels to your cobra? If so that explains a lot. Your car probably weighs close to 4000 lbs. Racing a 351 from a stop would not be a good idea for you. A heavy car like yours has a distinct disadvantage off the line. I bet you would have a hard time with a stock SC off the line. Now I see where you are coming from. I'm guessing your car is a mid 13 sec car. Have you ever taken your car to the strip? Have you seen your friends 351 at the strip? Just curious...

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You're just digging yourself a hole..................

Besides all the people I know who own S351's a few of which are multiple S351 owners........... I looked at and drove 5 different S351's before I ordered my current car, and that doesn't include the other times I test drove other S351's.

if you're concerned about the weight of the wheels on my car I've had and still have a set of very light weight BBS RK's that I've use on it. As well as I've run it with the stock Saleen wheels. As for the current set of wheels, they really don't weigh that much.

And just a FYI for you, those roll-ons I mentioned were against a S351 speedster, so if it's a weight difference you were concerned about it's a non-issue.

You're really assuming and guessing alot....

S281Cobra said:

You're just digging yourself a hole..................

Besides all the people I know who own S351's a few of which are multiple S351 owners........... I looked at and drove 5 different S351's before I ordered my current car, and that doesn't include the other times I test drove other S351's.

if you're concerned about the weight of the wheels on my car I've had and still have a set of very light weight BBS RK's that I've use on it. As well as I've run it with the stock Saleen wheels. As for the current set of wheels, they really don't weigh that much.

And just a FYI for you, those roll-ons I mentioned were against a S351 speedster, so if it's a weight difference you were concerned about it's a non-issue.

You're really assuming and guessing alot....

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If you would answer my questions I wouldn't have to assume... Again, I will ask you to re read my post. "Have you ever taken your car to the strip? Have you seen your friends 351 at the strip?" If the answer is yes I would like to hear what both parties made in stock trim as far as 1/4 times and speeds...

The fact that you raced a heavier speedster doesn't make your car any faster or lighter. Sure the gap in weight is less but that just means you were racing a 12.9+ sec. car instead of a 12.8+ sec. car. I hopefully don't need to tell you the speedsters were slower than the coupes. (Since you have many friends with multiple 351's you should know this.)

Are those 18's or 19's and what is the width on the wheels you have on your car? Regardless, unless they are polished (not chrome) they are heavy and pose a disadvantage for an already overweight car...

OK gentlemen, we could do this all day long. There are many conditions that can contribute to speed and time on both cars. How about we just leave this one alone and be civil here. I'll take the blame beacause I turned this post into which car is quicker and it has gotten out of hand. It's a matter of opinion, modifications, tune, weather conditions, etc etc etc. Can we go back to the original topic????

The reason the resale value for Saleen's is so poor is supply. The market is flooded with 99-04 S281's. In six months, there will be a flooded market with 05 Saleen's and those will also be dropping dramatically as well. That is life, blame Saleen for mass production. If your unhappy with your Saleen, sell it, take the hit and move on and don't bother coming here or any other site where Saleen's are discussed and *itch about it. I know many Rousch and Steeda owners in the same boat and the didn't produce nearly as many units as Saleen has. All cars have a deprication rate and for the above reason our rate is alittle bite faster then some other cars. But it will get to a certain point where it will level off and that point is were you will want to buy if you don't already have one.

whosdady said:

When I said the cobra killed the 351, E and SC I was referring to the resale value but I suppose you could reference it to their performance and potential as well.

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I apologize as well for continuing the off topic debate. I should have been more clear when I stated the Cobra killed the 351, E and SC. I was only referencing the resale value initially. Regardless, I think the 351's are amazing cars even 10 years later.

I agree, supply is one of the greatest reasons why our resale value has dropped. In addition the gap in performance has decreased from stock. For example look at the performance of the 05 saleens. This is why the 05's are having such a hard time selling. I think the biggest factor is the competition. I mentioned the cobra only for those that like Ford. I could have mentioned the new vette, GTO, 350Z, evo, STI, M3, s4, 911, rx8 and the list goes on. Granted, some of these cars don't compete in speed but for the price they are not a bad choice for someone that would like a warranty, sporty looks and nice handling. Like I mentionend earlier I almost bought a 99 S351 but chose the 350Z with an ATI procharger instead. Now I am building a 281SC monster. Next year I may be driving something else. The new coupe vipers are coming out soon so who knows what I will be driving...

whosdady said:

For example look at the performance of the 05 saleens. This is why the 05's are having such a hard time selling.

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Actually, the '05 Saleen sales look like it will be their BEST YEAR EVER.

Without purposely beating a dead horse here, i also belive the 03/04 cobra contributed to the s281's decline in value.
I think it's going to be much worse when the shelby cobra hits the shelf.

IMO this is not about the s351 and the cobra, it's about the s281 and the cobra.
In this day and age damn near everyone modifies everything, a pushrod motor and a supercharged forged 4.6 cobra engine have endless possiblilities.
Plain old 4.6 engines, do not.
Many people purchase on potential of a car. I for one do, and this is why i don't drive a regular 4.6

My Supra sold more than what I bought my 2001 S281 with 1000 miles on it. And it is definately slower. I wish my S281 was could match my Supra I wish I would have bought a COBRA

Yea, I agree.


Those mid 90's Supra's are enigma wrapped marvels. All of that h.p. that can be made from that 6. Amamzing!


Ok, I know bygone, S351 vs. 03/04 Cobra issue has been resolved. And I stayed out of it. It was hard to do. I knew Robert would dive back in eventually.

I love this vid.

http://www.undergroundracing.com/video/Saleen Flyby Small.wmv

That is what a properly tuned S351 can do to a kenne bell cobra on a roll. RPM's. What RPM's. Torque down low too!


Whosdady,

I want you to make some really good power with your car so you can love the power it can make like the looks. I know you are working on it. I love Cobra's too. I owned one also so now you know I have had both.

Here's the thing. In the long run your Saleen will eventually hold it's value better than any 03/04 Cobra. I promise. Sometimes we change our minds or budgets take us in a different direction too. I know you may not even own the car next year but here's what I think.

A 03/04 Cobra Saleen is going to cost way too much money anytime soon.
I love the fact that an "E" car is special but unless anyone who knows what to look for ( the hood ) visually on the outside and maybe the 14" brakes no one is ever going to see or know the difference between it and any other 99-04 Saleen besides the 04 center exhaust on the S/C's and the small difference in the wing design through the years.

Here is Marcus' recipe for the best of both worlds budget comparable to a Kenne Bell swap on a 03/04 Cobra.

Buy a clean original 99+ S281 N/A. Send the block out and get the bottom end of the short block forged. Have Fox Lake do a nice valve job on the heads. Purchase a Novi 2000.

That is it along with all of the supporting cast of detail parts. You will have a "real" Saleen, and I have seen a couple of really clean sub 35k mile cars for under 20K. It will hold it's value a bit better than most and you can make 600 rwhp all day long. Did anyone see what's- his- faces white S281 with that similar combo from Modular Powerhouse in 5.0 or MM&FF mag the other month?
Has anyone seen any of the videos of that guy ripping the hell out of that car. He really drives the sh#t out of it and it's dependable.

If I did not have so many projects going right now, that's exactly what I would be doing to a S281 N/A car.


Cheers

marcus95 said:

Buy a clean original 99+ S281 N/A. Send the block out and get the bottom end of the short block forged. Have Fox Lake do a nice valve job on the heads. Purchase a Novi 2000.

That is it along with all of the supporting cast of detail parts. You will have a "real" Saleen, and I have seen a couple of really clean sub 35k mile cars for under 20K. It will hold it's value a bit better than most and you can make 600 rwhp all day long. Did anyone see what's- his- faces white S281 with that similar combo from Modular Powerhouse in 5.0 or MM&FF mag the other month?
Has anyone seen any of the videos of that guy ripping the hell out of that car. He really drives the sh#t out of it and it's dependable.

If I did not have so many projects going right now, that's exactly what I would be doing to a S281 N/A car.


Cheers

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With the falling prices of the E, wouldn't it be easier to buy an E and swap out to the paxton? (although i'd use a vortech).

Amen to the supra... My favorite car I have owned so far was a single turbo MKIV compliments of Larry at Sound Performance.

Marcus, that is a great recipe for a fast saleen. One I thought about as well. My car should be finished by the end of next week. Currently I am thinking of keeping the S2 (for a few months) and seeing what kind of HP I can make. One guy made 460rwhp with a similar set up. Then I plan on getting the whipple 2300AX and putting a smaller pulley on it. We estimate 550+rwhp out of this combination. Total cost on the the upgraded blower will be $2700 installed. I already have the S5 inlet kit and then I can liken this car to a beefier E.

2000xp8 said:

With the falling prices of the E, wouldn't it be easier to buy an E and swap out to the paxton? (although i'd use a vortech).

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Well, yes the "E" car motor is already built and has the fuel delivery but I don't see an "E" going for 20k anytime soon. I'm just looking at owning a real Saleen 99 and up and go as fast as I can for as cheap as I can. That was the idea.


Come on man, you and I are pushrod guys anyway. I'm into torque.