School me on handguns, please.

DocG2828 said:

I considered the 9mm but dismissed it for its higher velocity and what I stated about not wanting the slug to exit a body. I might feel bad if it went through a wall and hurt a neighbor or...left a hole in my own wall.

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Im going to try and find a link I read a while back. It was basically a book a guy wrote. This guy was a coroner, and he said that about 80% of the time, when the bullet went through the victim/suspect, it was found caught in the shirt or whatever clothing they were wearing. Meaning it loses almost all of its velocity by the time it makes it through.

Now Im not saying you should just shoot at someone with a .357 MAG when there are a bunch of pregnant ladies behind him, but you get the idea.

Toms_2003_Stang said:

I had a concealed carry permit for 5 years and I carried everything from a .357 snubbie Taurus to a S&W Model 4506 in .45ACP.

My vote would be for a .357Mag/.38Spc revolver.......

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You CC'd a 4506? That thing is a brick. How'd you do it?

Anyway, the subject seems to have to penetration through walls. All bullets go through walls, guys. It doesn't matter if it's a .22, .45, 9mm, or anything else. See testing done at The Box O' Truth - The Box O' Truth. In the very first test he does, a .22 goes through the equivalent of 6 interior walls. WTF is a .40 cal going to do walls? It's not an issue you need to base gun buying on. Any bullet is going to risk going through walls. It comes with the territory. That's why one of the rules of safe gun handling is "be sure of your target, and what's beyond it."

The point is, stick with your original plan of a 9mm. It's a great bullet and perfectly acceptable self defense round. Honestly I've never seen the need for the .40 cal. The only reason it exists is because FBI agents couldn't handle the 10mm, and they needed something with a lot less recoil so it wouldn't hurt their little precious hands.

Tim, I didn't read all of the comments, but I'll make a few short comments.

Caliber, personal opinion. I personally like .40 or .45 ACP. I like the stopping power of the .45, its a big slow (relatively) round, with lots of energy. I like the .40 because it has a mix of velocity and stopping power.

The size and make of the gun, I can't tell you what to get. You said it wasn't for CC purposes, so I'd say rule out sub-compacts. Each gun (IMHO) has a different feel, different balance with empty mag, full mag, and 1/2 capacity. I love my SIG P229 (in .40), the way it fits my hand is GREAT, and the balance is great when loaded. That being said, the 229 is a bit large for a CCW for longer days. Then I bought my Glock G30SF (sub-compact .45ACP short frame) The "SF" just makes the reach from backstrap of the grip to the trigger shorter. For being a "mini, plastic" gun, I thought it would have more kick than it does. The recoil from it was surprisingly easy to manage.

The best advice I can tell you is go to many ranges, try to shoot all the guns you're considering. Lots of places have rental guns you can try. Your hand and preferences are different than mine, so I can't tell you what to get. I will say, for what you're looking for, a mid-full size gun would do well.

You're welcome to ask me any questions you may have, but there are many more knowledgeable people on this board than I am. The only thing that I can say about my opinion is that I give the pros and cons of both items, no matter my choice. I want people to have the most information they can and then they can make what I hope is a more informed choice.

My main complaint with the 9mm round for a home defense round is that it is a pretty hot round & will cut through walls with ease. That's one reason that my home defense handgun is a .45. The .45 is a slower bullet & not as prone to shredding through walls. Of course a counter to that arguement would be to get frangible ammo, but I digress & admit I much prefer .45 over the 9mm for that reason & also shear stopping defensive power.

If the worry is recoil for the wife shooting, I promise you she can handle .45 no problem. It's all in what you're comfortable with & you're comfortable with what you shoot alot. So, whatever you get make sure to get plenty of ammo & get her some trigger time & she'll be fine.

Lastly, I highly disagree with people saying the 1911 should be avoided for 'novice' shooters. A all steel / aluminum gun absorbs more recoil & alot of people will shoot them quite a bit better than a polymer gun & accuracy is the name of the game, especially in defensive shooting. A big advantage, in my opinion, of the 1911 is the safety systems on it. It has a grip safety & a thumb/slide safety. That might not seem like a big deal, but if there were a scramble in a defensive situation & you lost your gun someone would have to figure out how to manipulate the safeties. As opposed to the XD & Glock styles which have grip & trigger safeties & are basically just a straight grip & trigger pull. That split second(s) of having to manipulate the gun could potentially save a life. Just some things to consider.
(not knocking XD's, I have one myself in addition to my 1911's)

1911 is the best choice for a first time gun owner, or someone who has been away from them for a while.

Shaolin Crane said:

1911 is the best choice for a first time gun owner, or someone who has been away from them for a while.

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Seems like you and I are the only ones who agree on this. Oh well

timeless2 said:

Why would you do that? Solid gun? Reliable?
What's with the 1911? I'm clueless on this.

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The XDM as stated by many above is an excellent gun. Easy to field strip, feels good, reliable and all around great quality. Double stack mag so it might be a bit wide when compared to a 1911, but it makes up in having 2x+ in capacity. (i think andrews holds 19 rounds?)

Feels great, I can consistently put rounds in a head sized target at 30 yards with it. You find the wall and it will bark off rounds in a hurry.


IMHO, having a nice gun is only half the battle. Make sure that you're trained somewhat in what to do and what not to do.


EX: I had the privilege to go along with andrew and get a private range session with an army ranger on tactical shooting techniques. This guy is training to protect political big wigs and other higer personel over in the sandbox.

he said that your enemy is going to try and come to full draw how most people shoot. However your best defense is to pull the gun up next to your nipple and then shoot off a few rounds and then continue to extend out your arm to full position.

this guy explains it well in the first minute or so.

YouTube - Pistol Drills-Basic Tactical Shooting

the idea is that they're gonna be so "OH ****" when your poppin off rounds right away that they wont be able to gain a decent picture on your and once you're in the clear a proper stance can be taken.

with a bit a practice you can get pretty damn good shooting from that retention position.

fiveohwblow said:

Seems like you and I are the only ones who agree on this. Oh well

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Nope, put me in that group as well. A 100yr old design that is as strong as it has ever been can't be argued with, imo.

stangman said:

Lastly, I highly disagree with people saying the 1911 should be avoided for 'novice' shooters. A all steel / aluminum gun absorbs more recoil & alot of people will shoot them quite a bit better than a polymer gun & accuracy is the name of the game, especially in defensive shooting. A big advantage, in my opinion, of the 1911 is the safety systems on it. It has a grip safety & a thumb/slide safety. That might not seem like a big deal, but if there were a scramble in a defensive situation & you lost your gun someone would have to figure out how to manipulate the safeties. As opposed to the XD & Glock styles which have grip & trigger safeties & are basically just a straight grip & trigger pull. That split second(s) of having to manipulate the gun could potentially save a life. Just some things to consider.
(not knocking XD's, I have one myself in addition to my 1911's)

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My problem with not recommending the gun to novice shooters has nothing to do with the gun itself. The gun itself is great, and is definitely good to learn on. The problem is, firstly, they are outside of his price range, which appears to be about $500-600. I know there are 1911s in that price range, but not particularly nice ones. When you can get a really nice Glock, M&P or XD for the same price as a low end 1911, I'd personally rather get the polymers. Just my personal choice, I suppose. Secondly, which 1911 do you get? There's a bunch of different makers, with different qualities and features to consider.

Companies that make 1911s:
Colt
Springfield Armory
Smith & Wesson
Sig Sauer
Dan Wesson
Taurus
Nighthawk Custom
STI
Remington
Magnum Research
Kimber
Para Ordinance
Wilson Combat
Les Baer
...did I miss any? I think those are the major ones. Not counting the custom builders.

Personally, if I'm going to get a 1911, I want a really nice one, which costs about $1k+. If this is going to be the only gun he has for a while, a low end 1911 just might not be the best choice.

I'm an H&K fanboy but it all is personal opinion in the end as to which you end up picking. You need to feel the guns in your hand to decide which feels best. I have small hands and my P2000SK and full size USP both fit in my hands just fine. Others will complain that H&K's and Glock's are too bulky feeling. All my guns are in .40 S&W just because I feel it's the perfect compromise between the "knock down" power of a .45 and the capacity of a 9mm. I'm one of those who feel 9mm's are just too weak (and this of course will bring in the Durden's and such who talk of loading +p loads and such) but that again is personal opinion on my part.

When you're talking personal protection, really the over penetration of a hollow point 9mm/40/45 is a moot point because a well placed shot should effectively expand in the body cavity of anything you hit.

Now with my H&K obsession people often wonder why I spend so much "extra" for a gun that operates in the same manner as a cheaper Glock. From all the reading and studying I have done, I feel that spending an extra $200 (got both of them for <800 and many new Glocks go for ~500) to ensure that you have 99.99% reliability vs 99% reliability is good peace of mind when the lives of loved ones are involved.

One more thing too Tim....If it's main purpose is home defense, I'd look for a weapon with a rail. That way you can add a laser and or light combo to it. It's much easier/safer than occupying your other hand with a light.

Now on to the rest....There are many price points for 1911's & you can definitely find one in nearly every price range. If I was only wanting to spend $500-$600 I would probably get a Taurus railed 1911 or a Para Ordinance (which come in double stack 1911's if you want more capacity), they have a lot of features for that price point. Now, if you go to a higher price point like $700-$1000, I'd start looking at Kimber, Springfield, Colt, S&W & some Para's (Kimber TLE/RL being my personal choice of those, but again that's just me). I don't see a point in going on further up the rung with pricing etc since it's beyond what's going to be spent, but you get the idea.

Another thing is looking at pre-owned weapons too, if you want to get more for your money. I feel pretty comfortable purchasing used weapons because VERY few people will shoot a gun enough to actually wear it out when they trade it in. Most of those guns you see in the used section will probably have less than 1500 rounds put through them & that's just a warm up for most guns.

I always use Buds Gun Shop as a gauge for pricing locally because they have pretty good prices. If I didn't have a new gun shop open up locally here recently that I like, I'd be buying my next gun from them....
Discount Guns for Sale - Buds Gun Shop

XD fan here. But for home defense,I don't recommend pistols. A 12ga riot gun with #4 duck load is way safer. Bullets go through walls,potentially where other people (kids) are. At close range,in a home,a shotgun with dove load is more than effective at killing a human.

motard1 said:

XD fan here. But for home defense,I don't recommend pistols. A 12ga riot gun with #4 duck load is way safer. Bullets go through walls,potentially where other people (kids) are. At close range,in a home,a shotgun with dove load is more than effective at killing a human.

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A handgun can be used in conjunction with a CCW permit though...good luck concealing a shotgun.

Dusstbuster said:

A handgun can be used in conjunction with a CCW permit though...good luck concealing a shotgun.

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Concealing a shotgun or any long gun for that matter would be a quick way to a felony in NC. Definition of a handgun, a firearm that can reasonably be shot and controlled w/one hand.
O.p. I don't think caliber or type of handgun is your problem, using the "son of a gun" is the biggest issue, whether you choose .50 GI or a .22 (which is a very lethal round so no laughs) every caliber is going to do its job if shot accurately. This must be exciting for you, let us know what you choose.

jlangholzj said:

IMHO, having a nice gun is only half the battle. Make sure that you're trained somewhat in what to do and what not to do.


EX: I had the privilege to go along with andrew and get a private range session with an army ranger on tactical shooting techniques. This guy is training to protect political big wigs and other higer personel over in the sandbox.

he said that your enemy is going to try and come to full draw how most people shoot. However your best defense is to pull the gun up next to your nipple and then shoot off a few rounds and then continue to extend out your arm to full position.

this guy explains it well in the first minute or so.

YouTube - Pistol Drills-Basic Tactical Shooting

the idea is that they're gonna be so "OH ****" when your poppin off rounds right away that they wont be able to gain a decent picture on your and once you're in the clear a proper stance can be taken.

with a bit a practice you can get pretty damn good shooting from that retention position.

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Yup, the guy I trained for CCW, had me do that drill (ex-sniper). Not like you see in the movies or T.V. where the good guys are in full extension in a house, thats a quick way to get your gun taken away from you.
People argue semi's and revolvers, the old school crowd tend to lean towards the revolver b/c the semi won't fire if the action is pushed back ever so slightly.

trombonedemon said:

Concealing a shotgun or any long gun for that matter would be a quick way to a felony in NC. Definition of a handgun, a firearm that can reasonably be shot and controlled w/one hand.
O.p. I don't think caliber or type of handgun is your problem, using the "son of a gun" is the biggest issue, whether you choose .50 GI or a .22 (which is a very lethal round so no laughs) every caliber is going to do its job if shot accurately. This must be exciting for you, let us know what you choose.

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Those of us in MN with a CCW permit can legally carry a shotgun/rifle/handgun openly or concealed in any non-government building

I have many in many diff calibers. I bought an XDsc 9 last year and it's been a GREAT shooting pistol. Very comfortable and very affordable.

I also have a Taurus PT92f that's been great too. My dad bought it for me when I started college, so I've had it 15 or more years.

Right now, I'm kind of in to wheel guns. Python's and Smith's. Got a model 56 recently, just need to go shoot.

I'm thinking my next will be a Springer Loaded or maybe that new Range Officer. The only 45 I have is a colt wheel gun.

timeless2 said:

Now, see, the old coot behind the counter today stated one crucial flaw with Glocks. He stated that after 2000 to 2500 rounds, the mags start to have issues staying locked/retained. True?

Honestly, I was all excited to gander at the Glocks, despite their abundance of polymer. You know, it's Mitch Rapp's weapon of choice.
Then he dropped that bomb.

Thanks for that input. Ever look at a 9mm as an option?
You're just lucky she didn't use it on you earlier this year.

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perhaps very early glocks had an issue with the magazines, but they have been improved over the years. in fact one gun magazine writer, massad ayobe i think, ran a test on his glock 19 where he would clean the gun once every 10,000 rounds. he stopped the first test at just under 33,000 rounds because the magazines wouldnt hold the slide lock open at that point. he got two new magazines, then continued the test. and i mean he torture tested that glock. he would do things like rapid fire the gun running several magazines through the gun, then dump the gun in ice cold water while he reloaded, then did the same thing, over and over again with nary a hiccup. he would bury the gun in mud, then give it a cursory wipe and shoot the weapon. again no issues. he then frozen the gun in a block of ice, thawed it out and again rapid fired the weapon. again no issues. he even had a truck run over the gun, he dropped the gun from a chopper, loaded hot rounds, etc. and through it all the glock performed flawlessly, despite only being cleaned once every 10,000 rounds.

even glock tested their guns when reports came in that the guns would blow up when hot loaded. in fact glock tested hot loads of several propellants up to, but not including, C4 and no problems what so ever.

eicht said:

I have been a Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor, So I have a little experience with handguns. I can tell you that A LOT of what you will get on here is subjective and personal preference especially as it relates to caliber. 9 mm is readily available and relatively scheap to shoot. All that being said, I wouldn't have a 9mm for a combat handgun. (personal preference) If you are not going to spend a lot of time training, a revolver in .38/.357 magnum is a great choice. They are simple and almost 100% reliable. If you are choosing a carry gun there is a trade off between size/caliber/capacity/holster preference that no one can really answer for you. (subjective) If you have a range where you can rent handguns, go there and spend a lot of time trying different guns. I carry a concealed weapon often. My weapon of choice is a S&W M&P 40C (compact .40) which holds 10 rounds. It is a polymer frame, is pretty light and comfortable with the right holster. I have a stainless Para Ord 12-45 (10 or 12 rds .45 ACP) which I carry sometimes but is heavy. I have a 5 inch 1911 Taurus which I keep in the house and take to the range. I personally would not recommend a 1911 for a carry gun unless you practise with the gun A LOT. I dont own any revolvers only because I like the greater capacity of the semi-autos and dont have an unlimited firearms budget. I will get one eventually but it will probable be a Taurus Public Defender in the .45 LC/.410 shotgun.
BOTTOM LINE: Any caliber 9mm and up in a semi-auto or .38 up in a revolver will make an acceptable defense weapon. Buy what feels good to you and take the time to learn how to use it. Caveat- a .380 can be had in a very concealable size for summer carry and I do plan to get one soon. In a gun fight the best gun is the one you have with you at the time. Oh, and if you are new to shooting buy a .22 pistol and shoot the living crap out of it.

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excellent post! i will however say that using a 1911 style gun even for a novice is not a bad idea. the key being to practice with the gun until you are comfortable shooting it.

my advice is to go to several gun shops, with preference to those that have a shooting range and rent guns, take the wife along as well, and rent a number of guns and shoot them. dont worry about the caliber either, if you see a .45 you think you might like, rent it and shoot it. and make the wife shoot it as well. at some point you are going to find a gun that you and the wife both like, and that will be the gun you want to buy. and dont take the word of the guy behind the counter as to what is a good gun and what is a bad gun. for instance i have a lorcin .380 that everyone says is a horrible gun, but mine does pretty well shooting. it is accurate, and fairly easy to handle. the only issues i have ever had was a few failures to eject, and a couple failures to feed. in its defense though i dont have a lot of rounds through the gun yet, perhaps 50 rounds so far, but it gets better each time i shoot it.

as for my personal preferences, i like a DA/SA gun like my EAA witness. that way i can keep a round in the chamber, and have the hammer down and the safety on. and when it need to shoot it, i just take the safety off and pull the trigger.

eicht said:

I have been a Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor, So I have a little experience with handguns. I can tell you that A LOT of what you will get on here is subjective and personal preference especially as it relates to caliber. 9 mm is readily available and relatively scheap to shoot. All that being said, I wouldn't have a 9mm for a combat handgun. (personal preference) If you are not going to spend a lot of time training, a revolver in .38/.357 magnum is a great choice. They are simple and almost 100% reliable. If you are choosing a carry gun there is a trade off between size/caliber/capacity/holster preference that no one can really answer for you. (subjective) If you have a range where you can rent handguns, go there and spend a lot of time trying different guns. I carry a concealed weapon often. My weapon of choice is a S&W M&P 40C (compact .40) which holds 10 rounds. It is a polymer frame, is pretty light and comfortable with the right holster. I have a stainless Para Ord 12-45 (10 or 12 rds .45 ACP) which I carry sometimes but is heavy. I have a 5 inch 1911 Taurus which I keep in the house and take to the range. I personally would not recommend a 1911 for a carry gun unless you practise with the gun A LOT. I dont own any revolvers only because I like the greater capacity of the semi-autos and dont have an unlimited firearms budget. I will get one eventually but it will probable be a Taurus Public Defender in the .45 LC/.410 shotgun.
BOTTOM LINE: Any caliber 9mm and up in a semi-auto or .38 up in a revolver will make an acceptable defense weapon. Buy what feels good to you and take the time to learn how to use it. Caveat- a .380 can be had in a very concealable size for summer carry and I do plan to get one soon. In a gun fight the best gun is the one you have with you at the time. Oh, and if you are new to shooting buy a .22 pistol and shoot the living crap out of it.

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I too am a firearms instructor, though my expertise is in close combat and disarming. But my weapon of choice is a 1911, tell me why you wouldnt recommend a 1911? Is superior trigger pull, pull length, trigger weight, slim design, optimum safety location, though a limited capacity at 10rds (which dosnt matter here in CA since we cant have more than 10rds) Grip angle is so perfect that 90% of all other brands use the 1911 grip angle. Complete tear down requires no tools as the gun itself was designed to take itself apart. Dead reliable. Weight may be a negative for some, but with the added weight follow up shots become easier and makes gun placement in the hand more apparent.

I dont think you can just brush off a 1911 as a bad combat handgun without providing info as to why.

Well the 1911 served our military well for 74 years, so I can't imagine a strong argument to that