Short block Questions.

Mustang5L5 · Apr 20, 2008

Trying to plan on an engine combo. RIght now i've settled on the entire Trick Flow top end package. I just need something to put it on.

I could and might use the stock bottom end for now, but i would eventually like to supercharge the combo. I figure an S-trim with the trick flow kit might put me around 450 fwHP. Unsure if the stock bottom end can take that.

I also want a 331/347 setup. I know that a lot say the wreist pin issues have been solved with the 347, but i might go 331 just to be conservative unless someone who really knows what they are talking about can convince me a 347 these days are reliable.

I started looking at DSS and their level 2 blocks.

http://www.dssracing.com/Small block Ford Short Blocks.htm

They offer a 3cc flat top and 13cc dome piston. WHich would work with the TFS heads? Both? Which would i want and why?

I will also look at other short block kits from aftermarker companies as well, but tonight i'm researching DSS.

Basically what id want to do is this:
331/347 short block
TFS top end kit
S-trim

Mustang5L5 · Apr 20, 2008

Well i found out my answer with the pistons.

with the 3cc pistons and the TFS heads i'd have a CR around 10.35. With the 13cc dished pistons it would be 9.22.

I would prob go for the lower CR considering i would want to toss a blower on top.

With the 347 and -18cc dished pistons it would be about 9.1CR

BlownFiveLiter · Apr 20, 2008

If you go 347 with a 5.315 inch rod, the wrist pins shouldn't intersect the oil ring. I bet you'd probably be alright on stock parts in the bottom end (if you added some ARP rod bolts), but I'd be more worried about the block lasting at that power level. The stock cast crank can take quite a bit, probably in the 550 HP range. The stock rods aren't too bad themselves, but I'd be weary of using them getting up there in power.

Rick 91GT · Apr 20, 2008

I have built that combo for a few customers on my 331 based shortblocks, nice combo that will yield great power. I usually custom order the TFS kit and get the Track Heat intake, and a Stage II cam or I ditch the cam and go custom.

The 347 is just as reliable I just prefer the long rod version and that leaves a little shorter piston that I like on my boosted combos, so I opt for the 3.25" stroke and go 331. Now on a DART block I like to go large bore, and then I have some options as far as pistons which work just fine at a 1.100" height.

I usually use a Probe 14.2cc dish piston, puts you right about 9.2:1 with a 61cc head, on a 0 deck block.

Mustang5L5 · Apr 20, 2008

Rick 91GT said:
I have built that combo for a few customers on my 331 based shortblocks, nice combo that will yield great power. I usually custom order the TFS kit and get the Track Heat intake, and a Stage II cam or I ditch the cam and go custom..

WHat's the dif performancewise between the Stage 1 and 2 cams?

Lets say i do the 331/347 combo and TFS top end kit What could i expect to see change if I were to go with the stage 2 cam? Is it streetable?

ShortThrow50 · Apr 20, 2008

i just installed a s-trim with 10 psi pulley and have the tfs with stock block. the car it came off of was a 90 gt with a gt40 crate engine and TUNED with 24 pound injectors beleive it or not he made 430 on a mustang dyno. i know this because i went to the shop an bought the unit and saw the dyno sheets. i think it will be a good combo with awesome numbers.

mustangfan1990 · Apr 20, 2008

The stage 2 cam is what I am running with my s-trim on a 302 and my cam LOVES LOVES LOVES boost

5spd GT · Apr 20, 2008

Mike,

Your absolute best bet, without question, is to let Rick do this engine build for you.

I would strongly suggest against a DSS build, with boost. There is a very small amount of things one can do to help the strength of a stock block, like DSS uses.

If you are going with the stroker, you really need to get away from the stock block with boost.

You also NEED to get a custom camshaft with something like this. $325, and that is it, for higher performance, better streetability, etc.

The Trickflow Stage 1 and Stage 2 are okay on a budget, but don't hold a candle to a custom camshaft.

Just some things to think about, because it will pay off in the end.

Better to do it once, then do it twice.

2000xp8 · Apr 20, 2008

5spd GT said:
Mike,

I would strongly suggest against a DSS build, with boost. There is a very small amount of things one can do to help the strength of a stock block, like DSS uses.

If you are going with the stroker, you really need to get away from the stock block with boost.

Totally agree.

I'd reconsider the blower, and use the money on a better NA setup.
Age old issues will always prevail.
You can make 500rwhp with S on a 302, which is the absolute limit.
Now you spend more money on a 347, but still, you can make no more power than what you could of done with the 302.

IMO, build a NA 347 with a good set of heads (like the bigger afr's or tfs cnc wedges) and intake to match.
Ya, it will make less peak power, but it will be just as fast as the 347 with an S, because the block has limits.

For the real winning setup, use a NA dart or R block setup, with race heads, custom cam, jesel rockers and EFI victor intake.
Know someone that ran 10.7@124 that way.

enyawix · Apr 21, 2008

Why not look at a f4te 357 build "4.030 Bore"?

It cost less than a 347 build

The block is stronger

It will make power sooner in the rpm band

It has a better rod vs stroke ratio

The exhaust tone is deeper at idle.

5spd GT · Apr 21, 2008

enyawix said:
Why not look at a f4te 357 build "4.030 Bore"?

It cost less than a 347 build

The block is stronger

It will make power sooner in the rpm band

It has a better rod vs stroke ratio

The exhaust tone is deeper at idle.

I actually doubt it will make any power sooner.

The 351 (roller) is a much heavier rotating assembly than a 3.4" stroke assembly. More work has to be done to rotate the assembly, which equates to less acceleration. He would also have to factor in swap over parts, and a new hood.

Now, a stroked 351 is another story.

Grn92LX · Apr 21, 2008

Mike, let Rick build you a n/a stock block 331/347. Piece together a nice h/c/i package and you'll make really good power with less headache. Rick did my 347 almost 3 years ago and its worked out great. I just need to step up to a 42lb injector now since I just found ut my 30's are completely maxed out

88-378 · Apr 21, 2008

5spd GT said:
Mike,

Your absolute best bet, without question, is to let Rick do this engine build for you.

I would strongly suggest against a DSS build, with boost. There is a very small amount of things one can do to help the strength of a stock block, like DSS uses.

If you are going with the stroker, you really need to get away from the stock block with boost.

You also NEED to get a custom camshaft with something like this. $325, and that is it, for higher performance, better streetability, etc.

The Trickflow Stage 1 and Stage 2 are okay on a budget, but don't hold a candle to a custom camshaft.

Just some things to think about, because it will pay off in the end.

Better to do it once, then do it twice.

Hey 5sp. have you seen those girles? supports? whatever they are that go in the lifter valley? They say that a stock block capable of 8,000 rpm plus can hold up with these?

2000xp8 · Apr 21, 2008

8000rpm?
No way.
Possibly in a race only situation where the block is filled, but even that's pushing it.

5spd GT · Apr 21, 2008

88-378 said:
Hey 5sp. have you seen those girles? supports? whatever they are that go in the lifter valley? They say that a stock block capable of 8,000 rpm plus can hold up with these?

Sure, I believe it, but it does not last long at that RPM.

8,000 RPM, sure, but how much HP at that RPM?

My guess is that it would hold that RPM, with our without the valley girdle.

Mustang5L5 · Apr 21, 2008

I'd like to have the engine built in one shot, but unfortunately i'm trying to buy a house as well..so i can't go too extreme and build a $10K engine.

Supercharger aside..i would like at least to do the TFS kit and get about 350HP N/A. My stock short block has 98K miles on it, but has nice oil pressure and compression. I am sure it would hold up fine to 350ish HP.

I just don't want to pull the engine a year from now to do the bottom end. The supercharger isn't really necessary for the plan. I'd honestly be happy with 400 safe, reliable FWHP.

I already have a nice list of supporting mods such as a 255 fuel pump. I have 24# injectors but i assume i'll need larger.

I have about $3K right now (for the TFS kit) and maybe $3-4K next spring.

A nice 331/347 setup with the TFS kit would make me happy.

Grn92LX · Apr 21, 2008

Just do the TFS kit then if that amount of power will make you happy. If you're trying to buy a house, I wouldn't even spend a dime on the car. I'm sure the boston mass area is much like the long island/nyc area where houses are crazy expensive, over $400k for something decent.

Mustang5L5 · Apr 21, 2008

Grn92LX said:
Just do the TFS kit then if that amount of power will make you happy. If you're trying to buy a house, I wouldn't even spend a dime on the car. I'm sure the boston mass area is much like the long island/nyc area where houses are crazy expensive, over $400k for something decent.

$400K buy's a fixer-upper

Actually with the market tanking like it is, i've gone and looked at some decent condos in the $250-350 range that I may do.

My "stang fund" is still just cash...so if i really need it i can use it. I'm just trying to figure out what I want as i tend to take my time with huge decisions like an engine setuo

As of right now...i have a HUGE pile of parts needing to be installed first on my Fox...so engine can wait.

But i just want to start cooking up some ideas

5spd GT · Apr 21, 2008

I would go with a 347, from Rick.

Top it off with stuff from Ed @ FTI (my personal experience), like AFR 185, FTI camshaft, and a Holley or RPM II. These are things that he will likely suggest.

A TFS-1 camshaft is about $160. You can get a custom camshaft for $325. A difference of $165 for better driveability and power at the same time.

You could get away with a nice 350-400 RWHP N/A set-up for 6-6.5k total with a stock block.

No weight of the supercharger, since you hate unnecessary weight.

Foxfan88 · Apr 21, 2008

i say get a 351 and stroke it to a 408, stronger block and you wont have to turn that much RPM to make much power. wouldnt be too hard to adapt it to fit and work well in the fox car and can be ran with EEC-IV and tuned to run well.

can make mad power and not rip itself apart.

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