Someone explain timing to me

[chobracobra]

ok I know what ignition timing is fully. What i do not know are the numbers it should be at. My car smells like raw gasoline when it is idiling, and doesnt seem to have the get up and go sometimes. I have never touched the timing and was wondering if the spark triggering earlier will combust better. How exactly do i adjust timing manually(i have a light if needed on it) Also what do you guys think of this for someone who lives where weather and gas change on an irregular basis?? Is this a good prouduct?http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10002&storeId=10001&categoryId=22977&parentCategoryId=11555&langId=-1

 

[notchback]

you want the spark plug to ignite right on or a bit after the piston reaches top dead center...if it pops b4...it slows the movement...but if it waits too long....not enough compression.

stock timing is 10* you can go to 12* ez on low grade pump gas....14* if you use premium

you need to start the car, remove the SPOUT (the little plug in the end of dist harness, adjust timing...make sure your on plug #1 then tighten it back down..plug the SPOUT in and thats it.
b4 you start...get under the car and get some chalk, crayon or paint on the timing marks so you can read them.

and the timing marks to the right (as you face the car and looking down) of the 10 spot is where you need to be adjusting to.....the correct side reads from 0-20 not
0-10

 

[TheUser]

I suppose you could use the MSD box, but it's definately not necessary. You could use the procedure above, or if you need more detailed info, run a search.

Just remember to remove your SPOUT before you put the light on it and put the SPOUT back in when you're done....I think I normally turn the car off before I put the SPOUT back in, but that's probably not necessary.

Get the light on it and see what it's set at now, you may have 6 or 8* of timing and not even know it...I forgot to look at your sig before writing this, but if you have large injectors and/or your fuel pressure is high, that will sometimes cause the raw fuel smell.

 

[5spd GT]

Okay, someone explain what timing a car actually does? notchback was getting to it...but is their a further explanation. For example, if someone says "what is timign?" What do you say and what is the timing have to do with the degrees?

 

[chobracobra]

thanks for the replies..notchback: i understand what your saying but it gets hazy when you said"adjust timing...make sure your on plug #1 then tighten it back down..plug the SPOUT in and thats it."
wont the engine turn off if the spout is dissconnected??

 

[chobracobra]

basically that msd controller does exactly the same thing as popping the hood and timing it manually? i might get it. Around here gas prices are so high that i usually switch from 93 to 89 octane..never 87. also weather is nuts here. it is always changing.

 

[BlackGT89]

Okay, someone explain what timing a car actually does? notchback was getting to it...but is their a further explanation. For example, if someone says "what is timign?" What do you say and what is the timing have to do with the degrees?

There are 360 degrees in a circle (picture a pie cut into 360 slices). The degrees of timing (10, 12, 14 BTDC) refer to how far ahead of Top Dead Center the spark takes place. If you could place a protractor on the crankshaft (looking into the front of the engine) you could measure these degrees of rotation, but they are already calibrated into the harmonic balancer. The trick is to get the spark to explode the mixture at the "perfect" time as to get the best downward thrust on the piston. This actually occurs before the piston has reached its highest point, but if you time the spark too far ahead of the optimum point and the explosion is trying to expand before the piston has reached this point, you get detonation (which opens up a whole new can of worms). Even though it seems you wouldn't want ignition to occur before the piston is at top dead center, it takes time for the flame to spread and the full force reach it's highest intensity. Think in slow motion terms as this is all taking place over a period of time.

 

[Vapors]

thanks for the replies..notchback: i understand what your saying but it gets hazy when you said"adjust timing...make sure your on plug #1 then tighten it back down..plug the SPOUT in and thats it."
wont the engine turn off if the spout is dissconnected??

You adjust the timing by spinning the distributor either left or right. The timing light runs off the #1 plug, when it fires, it lights up allowing you to see where its timed at. The plug on the end of the harness needs to be unplugged before you do any adjustments to the timing, the engine wont shut off if you disconnect it...

 

[9 Deuce GT]

BlackGT89:

Good explanation. Now if you could, how does the SPOUT work? I am still struggling with the idea of timing advance, and how and why the EEC performs this task. Basically, what and how does timing advance work?

 

[chobracobra]

You adjust the timing by spinning the distributor either left or right. The timing light runs off the #1 plug, when it fires, it lights up allowing you to see where its timed at. The plug on the end of the harness needs to be unplugged before you do any adjustments to the timing, the engine wont shut off if you disconnect it...

So the timing light is pointed at the harmonic dampener? All i know is there is a heavy yellow line painted on mine. Is this TDC? Looks like a few people need some info on this

 

[5spd GT]

There are 360 degrees in a circle (picture a pie cut into 360 slices). The degrees of timing (10, 12, 14 BTDC) refer to how far ahead of Top Dead Center the spark takes place. If you could place a protractor on the crankshaft (looking into the front of the engine) you could measure these degrees of rotation, but they are already calibrated into the harmonic balancer. The trick is to get the spark to explode the mixture at the "perfect" time as to get the best downward thrust on the piston. This actually occurs before the piston has reached its highest point, but if you time the spark too far ahead of the optimum point and the explosion is trying to expand before the piston has reached this point, you get detonation (which opens up a whole new can of worms). Even though it seems you wouldn't want ignition to occur before the piston is at top dead center, it takes time for the flame to spread and the full force reach it's highest intensity. Think in slow motion terms as this is all taking place over a period of time.

That is exactly what I wanted... I have timed cars but didn't know "why"

 

[Euphoric306]

well if the engine needs 12 degrees of rotation for the spark to fully combust the air/fuel mixture at idle (1000 rpm approx.), then its gonna need a bit more degrees if the engine is running at 4500 rpm, because the rate of combustion stays the same, but the rate of rotation doesnt, so it may need 25 or 30 degrees before the spark completely combusts the mixture and force is applied to the piston - thats spark advance and the eec automatically does it with timing curves programmed into it

yes point the light at the harmonic dampener, somebody probably painted that yellow line and nobody knows what it is on stangnet, youll have to go under your car and look closely, because all the degree marks are etched into the dampener, so just read which one is painted yellow, on my old car there were two white lines, one at 10° and one at 14°

spout lets the computer advance timing, with it out you're setting the "base timing" and thats the only control we have over timing unless you get advanced software like the twEECer system, but dont worry about that

you can remove the spout while the car is running, thats what its designed for

one point of safety i might add... ive seen a lot of people just grab the distributor from the top where the wires are and turn it from there, which may not hurt you at all, but keep in mind there are a lot of volts and amps going through those wires many times a second, i like to turn the distributor from the ignition module, where there are a lot less electrons to kill me. yea there's insulation on the wires, but many times when people get hurt by cars there are measures taken by manufacturers to prevent that, they just didnt work very well


good luck with your timing, if that doesnt solve your running rich problem, try pulling codes because you may have some bad sensors or something ... LATE

 

[9 Deuce GT]

Okay, so I read the posts here, and did a little reading in some Ford related books I have. I understand why the EEC uses timing advance, etc., but when you advance the timing manually, (going from 10 deg. to let's say 14 deg.) how does this impact the cars performance? I mean, doesn't the EEC have ultimate control over the spark timing? I don't see how a manual advance can't be over ridden by the EEC.

If the base timing is 10 deg. and the driving conditions call for an advance of 10 deg. for a total time of 20 deg., how does the EEC settle for this. What would happen if the base timing was manually adjusted at 16 deg.? Would the EEC just automaticlly give a 10 deg. advance, or settle for the correct setting due to conditions?

 

[HISSIN50]

Okay, so I read the posts here, and did a little reading in some Ford related books I have. I understand why the EEC uses timing advance, etc., but when you advance the timing manually, (going from 10 deg. to let's say 14 deg.) how does this impact the cars performance? I mean, doesn't the EEC have ultimate control over the spark timing? I don't see how a manual advance can't be over ridden by the EEC.

If the base timing is 10 deg. and the driving conditions call for an advance of 10 deg. for a total time of 20 deg., how does the EEC settle for this. What would happen if the base timing was manually adjusted at 16 deg.? Would the EEC just automaticlly give a 10 deg. advance, or settle for the correct setting due to conditions?

The EEC timing tables are fixed (unless you have a Tuner, chip, etc). So what we do when we advance static timing is we phase-shift the timing curve. If you bump the timing from 10* to 14* (for example), you will theoretically have 4* more advance across the board and 4* more total timing than you did before. The computer still does its normal programmed advancement just like before - it does not 'know' that you advanced the timing.

 

[sgarlic]

Heh .. you know what I just realized? The guy probably smells gasoline because he has an offroad mid-pipe.

 

[9 Deuce GT]

So, what you are saying is, if you have a base timing of 10 deg. under idle conditions and then you go WOT, let's say the EEC adds 10 deg. for a total of 20 deg.

Now we advance base timing to 14 deg. Under the same WOT conditions, would the EEC still add 10 deg. for a total of 24 deg., or would it only add 6 deg to get to the same 20 deg. total timing?

 

[HISSIN50]

So, what you are saying is, if you have a base timing of 10 deg. under idle conditions and then you go WOT, let's say the EEC adds 10 deg. for a total of 20 deg.

Now we advance base timing to 14 deg. Under the same WOT conditions, would the EEC still add 10 deg. for a total of 24 deg.

To use your numbers, what is above is correct. The puter has no clue what you have set the timing at so it just goes about advancing per what it is programmed to do. That 24* instead of 20* would reflect the phase shift. The puter does not limit advance to 6* instead of 10* because it has no clue that you advanced timing.

FWIW, in case anyone looks at this in its real dynamic, an example that is more accurate:

SPOUT out timing set at 10*. Once the SPOUT chip is installed and the puter can control timing, the base timing at idle goes up to ~20* (just from installing the SPOUT).

The timing depends upon things like EGR function, engine temps, etc etc. But total timing would be around 40* if base timing is set at 10* (the computer is programmed to advance timing around an additional 30* from the base setting).

Total timing is kind of an old school term (when we had mechanical and vacuum advance distributors - no computerized advance). One would curve the dizzy to achieve the base and total timing that they wanted by a given RPM. Total timing is just to total amount of advance one sees (around 40* for most folks).

 

[deadlast]

are you able to rent/borrow a timing light from an autoparts store like autozone?

 

[notchback]

are you able to rent/borrow a timing light from an autoparts store like autozone?

possibly, but they are that expensive, and chances are you know someone w/ one. you can get a craftsman for about $30 bucks i think....

a really nice tool to have is a 1/2" distributor wrench...the craftsman one is $8.95

and it is worth it's weight in gold.

chobracobra......that yellow line is just where the last guy marked where he wanted it.

get under and look at the actual etched mark.....it's probably 12* advance but who knows

they are not marked w/ color from the factory

 

[chobracobra]

that was a nice thread of information. i learned a lot more than i thought i would need to! Thanks all!!:SNSign: