Starter / Electrical / Stereo help needed

[hotrodnut]

Here is something I need help in figuring out and I am hoping some of you can chime in and help me with this.

I took the Mustang for a 20 mile long ride mostly in town, no romping and when I turned it off the scenario below occurred:

- Shut off the Car and the CD player keeps trying to eject a CD.
Note that this is the Factory 460 Stereo and the CD or Radio was not turned on and hasn’t been turned on in a very long time, nor was there any CD's in any of the 6 slots.

- Turned key on to run position and turned on CD player, tried eject, nothing, switched to Radio and back to CD, then tried eject, nothing. It is still trying to eject a CD constantly by itself.

- Tried inserting a CD, the door was locked closed, tried pushing the Load button, then a number of which slot for the CD's, nothing. Kept doing the Load/Eject and number of slot, nothing.
Finally while pushing the Load/Eject and number of slot and while pushing a CD up against the CD door one went in. It played so another CD was inserted into slot 2, then slot 3. All seemed fine and the CD played in the run as well as the accessory key switch location without constantly trying to eject a CD.

Now for the bigger problem:

Next morning the Mach1 is attempted to start, insert the key and turn to the start position and nothing, assuming that the Radio/CD player is the culprit and the battery is dead, a charger is attached while the Radio/CD player is removed so it can be sent off to get checked.

Battery now fully charged to 13.48 volts and CD/Radio removed, hit the starter, nothing. Same as before so the assumption of a dead battery was not the case. Checked the battery volts and the reading is now 12.5.

Recharge battery to 13.52 volts (1), turn ignition key to the run position and turn off and check battery volts = 12.85 volts (2). Next without a recharge, turn key to the start position and then off and the battery now reads 12.52 volts (3). Now repeat (3) a few more times and the battery never goes below 12.5 volts.

Now some details of what is happening to the car during the next tests and observations:

1. Battery fully charged, turn key to the start position in an attempt to start, the instrument warning lights go dead then when released to the run position in 4-5 seconds the tachometer and speedometer makes a full sweep and the instrument warning lights come on as well as the dome light and are very dim, then sometimes the electric fan will come on at a very, very slow speed. Note that this does not occur each and every time but maybe 4 out 6 times.

2. When the key is in the ignition, in the off position, door open, the interior light is bright and the open door chime is ringing. Turn the key to the run position, chime stops and interior light goes out. Turn key to the start position and #1 takes place again.

3. The power windows does not work when key is in the run position.

4. A diagnostic tool will not get a reading, after it is plugged in and the key is turned to the on position, it signals an error.

5. The Ford on board Diagnostic tool does not work, as when holding the reset button and turning the key to the run position, all goes dead as before.

The fuses and relay in the Power Distribution Box underhood were checked, fuses, #3, 4, 5, and 6 for the Starter Motor Relay, Ignition Switch and PCM were all ok.

Also checked was the fuse box underdash for the Engines controls #2 & 8, Starter Motor Relay #6, Anti-theft #19 and the Engine Control Management #21 and all checked ok.

The fuel pump safety switch in the trunk was checked as well.

The Ground Wire was checked for corrosion and being tight.

The volts were checked to pin 30 at the Power Distribution Box for the Starter Relay and it reads exactly as the battery so no drop in volts there.

The volts were checked to the Starter Solenoid positive terminal and there was no drop there.

A Starter Motor Relay from another Mustang was installed and there was no change in conditions.

A jumper from the positive side of the battery to the S terminal on the solenoid was run and the Starter Solenoid did not engage. According to this information the conclusion would be that the Starter/Solenoid is bad and needs replacing.

Now, if the Starter/Solenoid is bad, what was the deal with the CD player and how could that play a part in this, if any?

Does anyone agree with the final analysis above or can someone shed some light on what might be my problem(s) here?

Thanks!

 

[tomustang]

I would check the alternator, when that goes bad the stereo system and everything else on the current wiring system goes bad first thus having no power to them

 

[n0v8or]

My experience has been that 95% of the time, the symptoms you described are caused by poor battery connections or a high-resistance cell in the battery. I would eliminate those two things first.
Try cleaning the battery post connections. If that doesn't help, see if the car will start with jumper cables connected to a known good battery.

 

[hotrodnut]

I would check the alternator, when that goes bad the stereo system and everything else on the current wiring system goes bad first thus having no power to them

Since it won't even turn over with a full charged battery now I can't check it, but thanks for the tip and when I get it to run I will check that out.

My experience has been that 95% of the time, the symptoms you described are caused by poor battery connections or a high-resistance cell in the battery. I would eliminate those two things first.
Try cleaning the battery post connections. If that doesn't help, see if the car will start with jumper cables connected to a known good battery.

Thanks for adding your tech to this.

Yeah, my thoughts were similar to yours too, I forgot to mention that I did clean the cables and connections as well. The battery is okay as it holds a full charge with no problem. I just thought at first that it was a dead battery and it turned out not be the case.

 

[n0v8or]

A battery with a high resistance cell will hold a charge just fine. What it will not do is supply much current. As soon as you load it, the terminal voltage drops, than recovers to almost the same voltage once you remove the load. What happens if you turn on your headlights without turning the ignition key on? Do they appear to reach normal brightness?

 

[bgrd351]

I went thru very to the samething recently when my car was at 2 different body shops for 3 weeks straight (long horror story). when they went to give it back to me it had to be jumped twice and it started OK for the next 2 weeks but seemed to start very slow. This includes the sweeping gauges and all. I replaced the battery with an Optima Red top and had the alt rebuilt....no more issues with starting.

 

[damacman]

You supplied plenty of data - nice. You say the battery never drops below 12.5 volts? What voltage can it supply during the crank cycle? #2 in your list of details is a pretty good indication that your battery is unable to supply enough current to start the vehicle - a voltmeter will give us the skinny.

If the battery is the culprit, then the question is . . . what caused the battery to become dead? With the vehicle running (yeah, I know that's your problem . . . but you'll get that fixed soon) you should be able to measure in excess of 13.8 VDC at the plus and minus of the battery. If your alternator was bad, then your volt meter would show less voltage at the battery with the engine running than with it not running - due to the current requirements of all the accessories, etc.

Let us know what you find out.

 

[hotrodnut]

. . . . What happens if you turn on your headlights without turning the ignition key on? Do they appear to reach normal brightness?

Yes they do. Again I appreciate the input you are giving me.

. . . . I replaced the battery with an Optima Red top and had the alt rebuilt....no more issues with starting.

I hope it don't take me 3 weeks to get the Mustang going , glad to hear you did get yours running with what you did. I'm going to go ahead and get a battery and see what happens. Thanks a lot for your input too!

. . . . What voltage can it supply during the crank cycle? . . . . . . If your alternator was bad, then your volt meter would show less voltage at the battery with the engine running than with it not running -

Well, I didn't check the load on the battery while cranking it, I didn't think I could by myself, but now I think I could have taped the probes to the battery terminals and layed the multimeter so I could read it from inside. As soon as I get it running I'll run the alternator check and see what I can get there too. Thanks go out to you for taking time to give me some pointers.


I talked to a Ford Tech Friend of mine yesterday and he said it sounded like the ground, so last night, even though I had checked the ground cable for being tight previously, I removed it and made sure the connection was good and clean. That did nothing to help the problem.

He also told me that if the ground was ok, that a bad starter would be causing the problem. So, I guess I'll try one thing at a time, you guys suggestions first, then if that don't do it, go get a starter.

On a side note, I have been keeping the battery plugged up to a Battery Minder when I am not driving it since the day I bought the Mustang. I had hopped that would prolong the life of it and prevent any oxidation of the plates since I have only put 14k miles in the 3 years that I have had it.

Thanks again to all for the input you all are giving me.

 

[n0v8or]

This is a lot more elusive than I expected it to be.

That your headlights seem to be at normal brightness suggests that the battery and wiring can handle 15 Amps or so OK. Turning the key to the "run" position should not draw much more current than 15A, yet your system voltage seems to drop. If there was an abnormally high current drain, you should be blowing a fuse. This brings me back to a high resistance somewhere.

Some other quick tests to try:
(1) Turn the key to the "accessory" position (counterclockwise one click from off). Does the heater blower motor run OK and power windows and power door locks work in this position? If not, go out and measure the battery voltage.
(2) With the key in the "run" position, do either the power locks and power windows operate? If no to both, measure the battery voltage while the key is still in that position. If the battery terminal voltage is low (10V or less), the problem is an abnormally high current drain or high resistance battery cell. If the battery voltage is 12V or higher, check it at the 12V power outlet (cigar lighter). A big difference between the two readings suggests a high resistance connection between the two points, perhaps in the ignition switch itself.

 

[n0v8or]

One more question:
When you directly jumped the battery + terminal to the starter "S" terminal, did you see a nice spark? A high current condition would make a big spark, whereas a high resistance condition (either within the battery or ground system) would result in little or no spark.

 

[hotrodnut]

This is a lot more elusive than I expected it to be.

That your headlights seem to be at normal brightness suggests that the battery and wiring can handle 15 Amps or so OK. Turning the key to the "run" position should not draw much more current than 15A, yet your system voltage seems to drop. If there was an abnormally high current drain, you should be blowing a fuse. This brings me back to a high resistance somewhere.

Some other quick tests to try:
(1) Turn the key to the "accessory" position (counterclockwise one click from off). Does the heater blower motor run OK and power windows and power door locks work in this position? If not, go out and measure the battery voltage.
(2) With the key in the "run" position, do either the power locks and power windows operate? If no to both, measure the battery voltage while the key is still in that position. If the battery terminal voltage is low (10V or less), the problem is an abnormally high current drain or high resistance battery cell. If the battery voltage is 12V or higher, check it at the 12V power outlet (cigar lighter). A big difference between the two readings suggests a high resistance connection between the two points, perhaps in the ignition switch itself.

One more question: When you directly jumped the battery + terminal to the starter "S" terminal, did you see a nice spark? A high current condition would make a big spark, whereas a high resistance condition (either within the battery or ground system) would result in little or no spark.

Man I am glad I checked back on this before I went and spent $299 for the Ford Racing High Torque Starter!

I had decided to pull the starter and get a new one per my Ford Tech Friend, . . . but before I did I decided to come here one more time and see if there were any new posts.

With the latest info you guys gave me, I thought hummmm that was an awful weak spark when I ran the jumper to the "S" terminal . . . . so since I already had the starter off I checked voltage using the jumpers to the starter and hooked up to the Mach1’s battery and the multimeter, it read 1.5 volts down from 12.8! Checked the starter using the multimeter on another battery known to be good and it was 12.52 volts when using the jumpers to the solenoid, and the solenoid engaged as well and it had not with the Mach's battery!!

From this it was apparent it was the battery so I went out and purchased an Optima Red-top.

Now my world is all good again thanks to you guys.

Here's the testing results after the new battery install and a test drive:
Before start-up after new battery install the volts = 12.68 volts.
After start and while warming up = 14.28 volts.
After a 20 mile back road drive, engine off = 13.00 volts.
Start-up after the drive and at normal idle = 13.82 volts.

Another note here, I went ahead and installed the Radio/CD back in and it works fine. With the engine off, CD playing, the volts = 12.83 and the CD wasn't trying to eject.

Thanks again Guys, I really appreciate all the input in fixing this problem.

 

[n0v8or]

I kike a thread that finishes with a happy ending. Thanks for reporting back. It might help others someday that have the same problem.

 

[damacman]

Glad you've got it running. Recall my post above . . . what caused the battery to fail? Age? Bad Cell? Bad alternator? Let us know what you determine.

 

[hotrodnut]

Glad you've got it running. Recall my post above . . . what caused the battery to fail? Age? Bad Cell? Bad alternator? Let us know what you determine.

Well, I assume it was a cell, why I say that is when I took it to the battery store and it was put on their check machine, it had a 12.8 volt reading. When they applied the test to the battery, it said "needs charging" and proceeded to do so. The readout on the machine then stated "Cold Cranking Amps = 39" which the factory battery is 540 CCA. So we waited for 15 mins and the readout was still only at 41 CCA's. I got impatient, said I felt from those readings that the battery was bad, took the Optima and headed out.

The battery's age was right at 3 years and it has never been off of the Battery Minder when it wasn't being driven since new and the Mustang only has 14k miles. I assumed from that, that age may not be a factor but being a stock battery I may be wrong on that.

From the readings I got on the multimeter after my test ride which was 13.82 at idle with the fan running as well because of the heat. At first cold startup at higher idle the reading was 14.28 volts. From those readings I was content that the alternator is good. I hope I'm right on that one.

 

[hotrodnut]

I kike a thread that finishes with a happy ending. Thanks for reporting back. It might help others someday that have the same problem.

Hey, you're welcome, and Thank You for your advice and helping me resolve this problem so quickly.

I can't get over the complexity of the situation the newer electronic marvel cars of today have from just a bad battery! This may have been a simple situation for some, but for myself it had me baffled for a while even with doing all the tests from the Ford Shop Manual to pinpoint the problem.

I can't say enough how much I appreciate the input from you and others too on getting this resolved.