steel bradied brake lines....

[Stang_1973]

I was wondering how much better do these really feel. I had noticed that at first the car pedal feel is really good when I first start the car but as I would drive the pedal would get soft. Jegs has a kit for the front brakes and I was wondering if anyone swapped rubber to braided and felt much of a difference.

 

[burnout289]

I was wondering how much better do these really feel. I had noticed that at first the car pedal feel is really good when I first start the car but as I would drive the pedal would get soft. Jegs has a kit for the front brakes and I was wondering if anyone swapped rubber to braided and felt much of a difference.

I hate posting when I don't know from experience, but I wanted to share...

I have been doing a lot of research on SS brake lines and everyone says the pedal feel is much more firm and solid. Earl's, Goodridge and Russel are some names that seem to get a lot of praise. Summit Racing has kits around $70-100.

ALSO, I have not heard of this with our cars, but something that I've read a lot about in honda forums [my daily beater is an integra] is firewall flex. many people are noticing the MC moves with the firewall due to the hoses that don't flex. it's the whole weakest link idea...you strengthen up one thing and something else will start to wear faster. the fix I've seen for this is a bracket that mounts to the engine bay and has an adjustable stop to keep the MC from moving back. I don't know where you could put one on a classic 'stang or even if it's an issue, but I thought I'd bring it up and see what smarter people than me have to say.

 

[reenmachine]

I put braided lines on my race car and definitely noticed the difference, but this is under repeated full-force braking. I believe in them though.

Basically, you're removing a spring from the system. With soft rubber lines, some of your hydraulic pressure is used to "balloon" the lines ever so slightly instead of being used to move the brake caliper pistons. This is reduced with braided lines.

Firewall flex can be a contributor to braking inefficiency as well, but not enough to get really concerned with. I'd be interested to see what Historic or another frequent track visitor has to say about this. Think about it this way: the force from your leg has to get to the brake rotor somehow. The brake pedal transfers force through the plunger into the master cylinder. This force is reacted by the firewall structure. Any energy used to deflect the firewall isn't going into the plunger, any force used to balloon the rubber brake lines isn't going into the piston cavity, etc.

 

[DarkBuddha]

I have the SS flexlines, but I've yet to drive the car enough to really be able to give an opinion. With regard to the firewall flex at the mastercylinder, I think our vintage firewalls are heavier and of thicker material than new (lighter) cars. I just can't believe this would be a serious issue on our cars... hell, under severe braking, I broke (collapsed) a shocktower and the firewall was just fine. But hell, what do I know really...

 

[burnout289]

hell, under severe braking, I broke (collapsed) a shocktower and the firewall was just fine. But hell, what do I know really...

no kiddin? wow, I guess it really isn't a concern then. heh.

next time I go visit my 'stang, I'll have to have someone mash on the brakes so I can see in person. but I think reenmachine is right and our cars are more sturdy.

 

[gp001]

I don't get how putting braided lines in place of rubber will have any adverse affect on the firewall. In fact, I would say there is less force imparted on the firewall becasue more of the pedal force is transmitted to the caliper since there is less flexing of the lines. That means less legforce to get the same caliper force. The most amount of force on the Firewall is transmitted through the pedal assembly by your leg force. If the return force was greater it would push your leg back. Are you sure in the case of the Hondas it's not due to 1337 Ra53rs pounding on the brake pedal in an attempt to compensate for lack of quality stopping hardware?

But since the firewall is part of the chassis structure of our cars this whole discussion is a moot point.

BTW, I have braided on my brakes and my entire clutch system is braided line and have no firewall issues (and I have a big foot with alot of leg behind it).

 

[RGS0907]

I have the SS flexlines, but I've yet to drive the car enough to really be able to give an opinion. With regard to the firewall flex at the mastercylinder, I think our vintage firewalls are heavier and of thicker material than new (lighter) cars. I just can't believe this would be a serious issue on our cars... hell, under severe braking, I broke (collapsed) a shocktower and the firewall was just fine. But hell, what do I know really...

There is no way that I can be convinced that the firewall will flex after adding SS lines.

 

[burnout289]

well you admit that SS lines will not expand like rubber hoses. so if the rubber would expand, where does that force come from? and when that expansion is taken away, where does that force come out? the next weakest point in the system. if the firwall isn't very sturdy, it will give.

say you hold up a shock absorber to your car door. you push on it and what happens? the shock contracts and absorbs the force and the door is cool. do the same thing with a metal rod and push and dent your door. ok, i just made up this scenario, but do you see where i'm going with it?

i have seen a video of a guy's honda where someone was pumping the brakes hard and you could see the MC move 1/4" - 1/2" or so. i was pretty amazed. and i did concede that the lil japanese cars are less solid. oh, and the term "1337" is a computer geek thing, not a ricer thing.

ok, I don't want to jack up this guy's thread anymore, back to real info.

 

[SandSprite]

My firewall flexes quite a bit when applying the brakes. When looking at those power brake conversions, you will notice that many come with a reinforcement plate.

 

[gp001]

well you admit that SS lines will not expand like rubber hoses. so if the rubber would expand, where does that force come from? and when that expansion is taken away, where does that force come out? the next weakest point in the system. if the firwall isn't very sturdy, it will give.

say you hold up a shock absorber to your car door. you push on it and what happens? the shock contracts and absorbs the force and the door is cool. do the same thing with a metal rod and push and dent your door. ok, i just made up this scenario, but do you see where i'm going with it?

i have seen a video of a guy's honda where someone was pumping the brakes hard and you could see the MC move 1/4" - 1/2" or so. i was pretty amazed. and i did concede that the lil japanese cars are less solid. oh, and the term "1337" is a computer geek thing, not a ricer thing.

ok, I don't want to jack up this guy's thread anymore, back to real info.

So, you are saying the brass fittings, the flared hard lines, the bends in the hard lines, the rubber lines, the braided lines, etc are all superior to the firewall? If the firewall is that weak then I would suggest there are bigger issues to address.

First you are forgetting that less leg force is required to get the same caliper force. If the firewall is flexing after installing different lines the lines are not the problem. Are these people pushing past (harder) than needed? You can only impart so much useable leg force. Beyond that you are not making hydraulic force. I've never known a decent braking system to require alot of leg forced to actuate braking. My Mustang has a fairly decent braking system and I don' need to impart alot of force to achieve heavy braking. I could pull on the steering wheel and try to put my foot and brake pedal through the floor, but it wouldn't give me any more braking force. Obviously if you have seen the mc move there was just someone in the car saying "look, if I push hard enough to drop a nut I can flex the firewall". I hope the car doesn't require that much force to stop.

Also, I am fully aware of the origination of Elite speak. However, it has become ricer speak. I see it everday on license plates, windshield stickers, etc. In fact, I am willing to bet if you go to your honda site and read some of the signatures you will find lots of 1337 speak

 

[1320stang]

One, I've heard that stainless braided lines are meant for off road use only in many of the text on them that I've seen.

Two, didn't OpenTracker have some sort of Firewall brace or beefing up mod that he had done?

Third, I have no idea what this means: 1337 Ra53rs

 

[94CobraPace]

Stainless steel brake lines do make for better stopping & firmer pedal feel.
They also need to be replaced every 2 - 3 years. Reason, you cannot inspect the tephlon hoses & if the braids has any wires broke loose, they will puncture the hose.
Read this here: http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Performance/brakelines.htm
Very good info. I have SS brake lines on my Cobra & after reading this I checked my lines after 2.5 years with 20K miles & found the braids are starting to come apart, I can run my hand down the line & feel some braids had broken. I have replacment ss lines ready to go in. I do like them, just know what the drawback about them.
Something to think about. Good Luck.

 

[burnout289]

aaaaaaaaaaah! gp, I'm not trying to argue with you. I am not saying I am right and you are wrong. I just wanted to bring up something that is at least a concern on SOME cars, and I even admitted to not knowing if it would happen on OUR cars. enough people with hondas attest to this that I don't think they are making it up. and when autocrossing, some people get on the binders pretty hard.

click the red link on this page for a video of what I am talking about:
http://www.heeltoeauto.com/marketplace/drive/index.shtml

again, I am not saying this is a problem with beefy mustangs, but it's enough of a concern for others that a product is sold to prevent it.

as for the lines going bad, I was wondering about that since you can't see the hose inside. I'd like to hear more comments on this. and that article was very enlightening! thanks, 94Cobra

 

[gp001]

I didn't think we were arguing, just debating/discussing a point.

I've been around many cars that run braided lines and have never heard of this as a concern. I couldn't imagine racing a car whose firewall could be collapse wih a push of one normal human leg.

Well, that video shows a master cylinder moving but doesn't show the cause. Wish that video was a little zoomed out so we could see the firewall. If that movment is from merely changing from rubber to braided lines then I will make damn sure I never ride in any honda/acura. Again, I question whether the force they are pushing with is required for braking, or for show.

 

[Carizzma]

The real question is does the car stop better

 

[Stang_1973]

I never thought there would be so much discussion on brake lines. Thanks for the infor on the durability though. I remeber when i first got the car., it took alot of pedal force but that was because of bad brakes. Then I got them fixed and they worked normal. however like i posted before after a while the pedal does feel soft. i inspected the lines and there are no leaks in them or the fittings. I was planning on replacing them soon and am considering Steel braided lines. thanks for the info.

 

[burnout289]

hey gp, no worries. it's just hard to tell how heated a person is online. for myself, I'm glad to be corrected when needed. and I do trust people on here a tad bit more than people on Honda-Tech.com.

Stang_1973, could it be possible that the booster is going out [if you have one]? I replaced mine a couple of years ago, but can't remember the symptoms. and is the master cylinder in good shape? just wondering if there could be other reasons for your pedal feel.

 

[Stang_1973]

No booster.. All manual brakes. i am very used to them and have no problem stopping or anything. I admit that i should have a better braking system but hey money is always an issue. Ther eason is cause my mom drove the car once and it scared the crap out of her when she braked, asme when my cousin drove it. Now I dont go around and let everyone drive my car, just people I really trust, and at that its only like to go down the road to the store and not in the city traffic. but yeah I need better brakes.

 

[GaPonyFarm]

Its most likely not an issue of brake hoses or certainly not firewall flex that is bothering them. They have probably either not driven a manual brake car for a very long time, if ever.

It always takes me a few miles to get used to my '66 coupe manual brakes, after driving my '03 Mach 1... it even scares me sometimes.

Sounds to me like your braking system is pretty normal for what it is.

 

[66HertzClone]

The pedal support acts like a brace for the firewall. I would be that if you removed the bolts holding it to the bottom of the dashboard and had someone stomp of the brakes you would see the firewall flex. But with it properly connected, I find that hard to believe.

I once saw a Ford pickup with a cracked firewall. The crack was near the clutch master cylinder and it opened wide when the clutch pedal was depressed. Pretty scary looking.