Subframe connectors......its time,take the poll!!!!!
- Thread starter streetgrande69
- Start date
Psydwaze
Founding Member
Okay, I'm two days late to the discussion but maybe I can add a bit of enlightenment. Many people do not understand the significance of the added center support, 'X', brace.
Imagine a sheet of paper; very flimsy in all directions.
Tape a straw to each of the four edges to simulate a connector. Now the edges of the paper are stiff, but the two opposing corners can still be folded towards each other.
Add an 'X' created by overlapping straws to brace the opposing corners against each other. Now you have a much stronger structure because the distance between all corners is now fixed. "Triangulation"
Someone over at Corner-Carvers.com actually took the time to build a scale model of a Fastback and took measurements of increases in chassis deflection as each type of frame stiffener was added. The 'X' was added to the model and yielded surprising results. I did some quick searching but couldn't find the thread. If anyone finds it please post a link.
Imagine a sheet of paper; very flimsy in all directions.
Tape a straw to each of the four edges to simulate a connector. Now the edges of the paper are stiff, but the two opposing corners can still be folded towards each other.
Add an 'X' created by overlapping straws to brace the opposing corners against each other. Now you have a much stronger structure because the distance between all corners is now fixed. "Triangulation"
Someone over at Corner-Carvers.com actually took the time to build a scale model of a Fastback and took measurements of increases in chassis deflection as each type of frame stiffener was added. The 'X' was added to the model and yielded surprising results. I did some quick searching but couldn't find the thread. If anyone finds it please post a link.
Psydwaze said:
Ah yes, the balsa model, one of my favorite reads
http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?&threadid=13919
mdjay
Premium Sponsor
Hey Lino long time no hear from... While I don't argue what you say is true, I would like to clarify a couple of points that were made earlier.
First, you're only as strong as the material you are attaching to. So with TCP and the others, all the load is on one weld point in the front and rear on each side. Now if you make the subframe longer, and spread the load of the weld points up by adding more weld points, the frame becomes much stronger and puts less stress on the weak subframe metal.
A roll cage will also accomplish the same thing as the x brace in the twist, and it also helps you from getting your melon crunched.
First, you're only as strong as the material you are attaching to. So with TCP and the others, all the load is on one weld point in the front and rear on each side. Now if you make the subframe longer, and spread the load of the weld points up by adding more weld points, the frame becomes much stronger and puts less stress on the weak subframe metal.
A roll cage will also accomplish the same thing as the x brace in the twist, and it also helps you from getting your melon crunched.
Hack
15 Year Member
I completely agree with your first paragraph. Good idea!mdjay said:
I'm not so sure about the assertion that the roll cage will provide stiffness. Did you read through the thread above?
mdjay
Premium Sponsor
subframes
That's Maier's design!
When comparing the outer ones on the market, there is no denying that Maier has them all beat by design. They're much longer, stronger and they spread the loads. The two mounting points closest to each other in the middle are where most connector stop.
Although the x-brace works to prevent the twist or wallow Lino mentioned, a roll cage will help to prevent the body twist as well. (That was the folding of the two opposing ends statement). Also, the longer the subframe connectors, the less potential there is for that wallowing effect as well. Lastly even with the x brace, you are still relying on the single weld points front and rear to weak metal. They will just flex at the weld points! Although not easy to do, they can eventually tear if under enough load.
The main point here is If you added subframes to your car, you are miles ahead of someone who didn't. Something, in this case, is much better than nothing. The TCP line is a legitimate set-up without a doubt. As stated prior, I have them on my car as well from last years sponsorship into SEMA and they are sufficient for now. I am not trying to be hypocritical, I'm just making a point.
I am hooking up my torque arm on Monday after a year of waiting, so I'm about to put the x-brace to some real use
That's Maier's design!
When comparing the outer ones on the market, there is no denying that Maier has them all beat by design. They're much longer, stronger and they spread the loads. The two mounting points closest to each other in the middle are where most connector stop.
Although the x-brace works to prevent the twist or wallow Lino mentioned, a roll cage will help to prevent the body twist as well. (That was the folding of the two opposing ends statement). Also, the longer the subframe connectors, the less potential there is for that wallowing effect as well. Lastly even with the x brace, you are still relying on the single weld points front and rear to weak metal. They will just flex at the weld points! Although not easy to do, they can eventually tear if under enough load.
The main point here is If you added subframes to your car, you are miles ahead of someone who didn't. Something, in this case, is much better than nothing. The TCP line is a legitimate set-up without a doubt. As stated prior, I have them on my car as well from last years sponsorship into SEMA and they are sufficient for now. I am not trying to be hypocritical, I'm just making a point.
I am hooking up my torque arm on Monday after a year of waiting, so I'm about to put the x-brace to some real use
Attachments
If pre-made is it for you I like the tcp with the "X" even if your not racing the "x" is a plus. First off if you get hit or crash the car will be in better shape. second you'll be in better shape. third the car will last longer...less twist, less stress.
However if you weld I would look at the tcp's as a start for idea's but start further up the subframes. then the X would be triangulated and braced with sheet metal.
I have the tcp 1 & 2 and I can jack the car up from the center of either side and both front and rear wheel com up off of the ground
If you by sub frames from competion enginering, make sure that you don't buy the weld in types they require moving the leaf springs in 2" plus cutting the floor up not what I would do
However if you weld I would look at the tcp's as a start for idea's but start further up the subframes. then the X would be triangulated and braced with sheet metal.
I have the tcp 1 & 2 and I can jack the car up from the center of either side and both front and rear wheel com up off of the ground
If you by sub frames from competion enginering, make sure that you don't buy the weld in types they require moving the leaf springs in 2" plus cutting the floor up not what I would do
Psydwaze
Founding Member
mdjay said:
This is the very true. Just about any subframe connector will make a great improvement to any vehicle. Another important thing to consider is future modification issues that may arise from going with a particular design. If you're going to add mini-tubs later the Competition Engineering set should be installed. A side exhaust system may go in a bit easier with a connector that is cut into the floor for added clearance. Or in Jay's case, the cross member makes a torque arm a bolt-in installation.
mdjay said:... I am hooking up my torque arm on Monday after a year of waiting, so I'm about to put the x-brace to some real use
Let me know how the torque arm works out. I have only heard second hand feedback from a customer with a track car. He was thrilled with the performance at Laguna Seca but I'd like to hear some before and after comparisons.
mdjay
Premium Sponsor
torque arm
Still not enough tire for the power she's runnin' but it makes a pretty big difference when you put her down. More noticably into 2nd & 3rd gear.
Still not enough tire for the power she's runnin' but it makes a pretty big difference when you put her down. More noticably into 2nd & 3rd gear.
Psydwaze
Founding Member
Uhh, yeah... 550hp through 1st gear doesn't always hook up so good. 
Glad to hear you can feel a difference. I think we just jacked the thread... Back to subframes.
Glad to hear you can feel a difference. I think we just jacked the thread... Back to subframes.
Route666
Active Member
mdjay said:
That's a bit of a yes and no thing. I mean, with TCP's welded subframes, the joint is the whole weld, whereas the Maier setup joints are only the two bolt holes per subframe rail. I would like to see the weld-on bit on the TCP setup extend a bit further though.
EDIT: Ok there's a couple more bolt holes on the Maier setup. I do understand how much stronger it should be too, with being able to transfer bending torque over a longer pivot length.
BobV
20+ Year Stangneter 
You can also fabricate "thru the floor" SFC's. Very strong, and no loss of ground clearance (important with my side-exit exhaust...).
mdjay
Premium Sponsor
Wow! That was a lot of work... Nice job!
I would definately be welding in the Maier ones as well. IMO bolts are just for back-up.
I would definately be welding in the Maier ones as well. IMO bolts are just for back-up.
Psydwaze
Founding Member
How does that work out with putting the interior back in? I can see potential fitment issues with the carpet. Would you say this is a track car friendly mod?
I have a somewhat related question. I'm looking into putting subframe connectors on my car as we speak but my issue comes with the existing front frames. The PO must have jacked the car up on the left frame rail and it's dented in a half-inch or so. My brother seems to think it's fine and not structurally damaged to the point I will have to replace them. I'm someone that doesn't like to have many worries or concerns and that is one of them. He told me we could weld some metal to reinforce them if I wanted to but I am leaning towards just replacing them. I'm replacing the full floor pans now and the interior is out of the car so I guess my next question is, what would you guys do?
A) Reinforce them, install the subframe connectors and not worry too much.
B) We are here, might as well put new front frame rails and connectors on.
C) Do neither because the body shop guy is already hurting my pocket for $5,300...
I'm leaning toward the TCP Full X but I may buy stage 1 first and add stage 2 later. The car really won't have the power to really need the center X until later next year.
Anyone have a good website for TCP products?
A) Reinforce them, install the subframe connectors and not worry too much.
B) We are here, might as well put new front frame rails and connectors on.
C) Do neither because the body shop guy is already hurting my pocket for $5,300...
I'm leaning toward the TCP Full X but I may buy stage 1 first and add stage 2 later. The car really won't have the power to really need the center X until later next year.
Anyone have a good website for TCP products?
You might want to buy and install them at the same time. The X cage portion relies on the first stage portion for bolting in. You will likely have a hard time putting in the X cage down the road if you didn't have it in the first place to align the other two pieces to each other.
BobV
20+ Year Stangneter
Here's a good writeup on thru-the-floor connectors.
Link to discussion on another board about thru-floor SFC's
I haven't done the mod yet, but it's on this winter's list. I've been "pondering" and researching it for about a year now. As I understand it, the rear footwell carpet will have a slight "hump" in it, but still fits fine. The Baer Racing 69 Mustang "Track Car" was where I first saw this mod done. Yeah, it's more work, but should be VERY strong. I'm betting it could be done in one day for < $50 if the car is already apart...
Nice thing is that you can extend the tube a decent distance inside both F&R framerails.
Link to discussion on another board about thru-floor SFC's
I haven't done the mod yet, but it's on this winter's list. I've been "pondering" and researching it for about a year now. As I understand it, the rear footwell carpet will have a slight "hump" in it, but still fits fine. The Baer Racing 69 Mustang "Track Car" was where I first saw this mod done. Yeah, it's more work, but should be VERY strong. I'm betting it could be done in one day for < $50 if the car is already apart...
Nice thing is that you can extend the tube a decent distance inside both F&R framerails.
