Swap a 5.0 into a 99+GT?

Dale Royster · Jul 31, 2003

KickerStang said:
Great, your internals are stock, not your CAR. Your cobra killer blower kit is an awesome kit and probably added about 130HP, how can you not consider that a MAJOR bolt on. You can hit 12's NA just as you could with my car, just with the right mods, but they dont make it a pain in the ass to drive as a daily driver.

Ok, you dont have gears and your car is a vert. I am not crying for you because you have a killer s/c kit. You throw on some gears and learn how to drive and you have a 11 second vert.

Well I have the knowing how to drive part covered, What I need next is tires that I can hook with... Im sure I can get a 12 the way the car is now, just need a few more practice days. Maybe 11's next year when I can get a roll bar and a few other mods to my suspension.

If your really going to put a pushrod motor in the car, Id go with a small block chevy. Its far superior to the small ford and that motown 454 setup is beyond bad.

KickerStang · Jul 31, 2003

Dale Royster said:
Well I have the knowing how to drive part covered, What I need next is tires that I can hook with... Im sure I can get a 12 the way the car is now, just need a few more practice days. Maybe 11's next year when I can get a roll bar and a few other mods to my suspension.

If your really going to put a pushrod motor in the car, Id go with a small block chevy. Its far superior to the small ford and that motown 454 setup is beyond bad.

You definately have mid to high 12s in that car as is. Dont take this wrong, but if you had the learning to drive part covered you would be there already. Just more practice is all it takes. Get some DRs, it will make it alot easier. Definately 11's with some good DRs or slicks.

A Chevy motor in a Ford car? Blasphemy!

Dale Royster · Jul 31, 2003

KickerStang said:
I will have to look into this and see if it is worth it. I thought there was a difference between cobra and GT blocks.

There is a difference, 4v heads wont bolt onto a 2v block. Livernois just confirmed it for me

Dale Royster · Jul 31, 2003

KickerStang said:
You definately have mid to high 12s in that car as is. Dont take this wrong, but if you had the learning to drive part covered you would be there already. Just more practice is all it takes. Get some DRs, it will make it alot easier. Definately 11's with some good DRs or slicks.

A Chevy motor in a Ford car? Blasphemy!

Yeah Im sure it will go 12, I just gotta figure out how. Our track is well known for not having the most generous of conditions. I tried DRs on it last night and ran like crap. Your right tho, I need alot more practice.

There used to be a guy around here that had a wicked 350 Chevy in an 82 GT that was just disgusting fast.. Its not all that uncommon around here to find a Mustang with a SBC in it. I contemplated putting the 427 Chevy I had in my GTO into my 96 GT before I sold it. If its gotta be a Pushrod motor, make mine a Chevy, I dont car what kind of car its going in.

Dale Royster · Jul 31, 2003

I love these threads that are more like chats! Is there a way to chat here?

GTblack_00 · Jul 31, 2003

Dale Royster said:
There is a difference, 4v heads wont bolt onto a 2v block. Livernois just confirmed it for me

That is not my experience, but there may be an exception or two. Besides Technicle knowledge I have, I have physically put the two together, I have no Idea why they say that !

EDIT: They might have said that because it is not common practice, your typical "COBRA" block is a windsor, your typical "GT" block is a romeo. Besides, you cannot fit a cobra crank in a romeo without some machining for clearance.

KickerStang · Jul 31, 2003

GTBlack_00 said:
That is not my experience, but there may be an exception or two. Besides Technicle knowledge I have, I have physically put the two together, I have no Idea why they say that !

So you are saying you have done the swap personally? That is hard to argue with...

Stallion · Jul 31, 2003

the push rod blocks will break before the modular blocks will, the pushrods take up vcaluable space that could be used for streanth. imho

Aaron 4.6 · Jul 31, 2003

KickerStang said:
I will have to look into this and see if it is worth it. I thought there was a difference between cobra and GT blocks.

Well here is problem #1. You should probably know what in the hell you are talking about before you start making generalizations. It sounds to me like you have never looked at either an aluminum 4.6 block or a CI 4.6 block. If you had you would notice that all bolt hole sizes, spacings, and locations are the same. There is a minor difference in some jacketing, but that's about it. You would also know that Mike Tymensky pucked his spray-bore 5.0 block, and proceeded to bolt all of his FR500 stuff onto a regular 4.6 GT block and race it. You would also know that Steeda puts hot 2V stuff onto aluminum blocks for mid-range torque and weight savings. That's as interchangeable as it gets my friends.

Here is my problem with your argument- you are essentially moaning and complaining about displacement. Its not about power. From bolt-on grocery getters to heads-up NMRA/FFW (see Randy Haywood's win in Atlanta) racing the 4.6 can make as much power as a 5.0. The routes each engine takes might be different due to the nature of the aftermarket, but it can certainly be done.

You complain that there aren't many good head combinations out there, but the reason for that is that the damn factory heads are so good there is no impetus to develop an aftermarket head. My stock 96 DOHC head will flow about 250 cfm (intake). That's more than many out-of-the-box offerings for the 5.0. When you consider that I have about 10% less cylinder volume to fill, that's equivalent to a 5.0 head that flows about 270 cfm. How much better can the aftermarket do while maintaining acceptable port velocity for daily driving?

You complain that you can't stroke a 4.6 to beyond a 302. Well, with a stock bore that's correct, but you can easily take the 4.6 to 324 c.i. and beyond if you are willing to entertain a larger piston. When you look at the ratios, 324/281 * 302 = 348. In other words, just as much percent volume gain can be acheived in a 4.6 as can be acheived in a 302-based stroker (they don't come bigger than 349 for all intents and purposes).

Here is a perfect example of some of your flawed reasoning:

I was thinking 5-10 years down the road if/when it gives up the ghost. Lets say I shoot 150shot on this car and the motor gives...I am going to have to spend upwards of $3000 for a new shortblock why not get a GT-40 crate motor for the same price? It is lighter than the 4.6. Makes more HP than the 4.6. That is all, just thinking of possiblities. I have heard of fox bodies running mod motors but not 99GTs running pushrods.

#1- $3000 will buy you a GT-40 longblock. It will not include intake, front engine dress, nor any of the many items needed to successfully implant this engine into your car and get it running. From fasteners to K-members to wiring... you need more than an engine.

#2 OR you could buy a complete 2001 Cobra engine for about that same price. The engine comes with wiring and all accessories. It bolts right into your car and wiring is not too large of an issue.

#3. Read that last sentence again in your quote and ask yourself- why do I see foxes running modulars, but not 96+ cars running pushrods?(there are a few of these to be sure, but not many) Perhaps there is an extremely valuable insight to be gained by wondering why the flow is going mainly in one direction.

Here is some more stuff I have a problem with:

500RWHP is not too shabby, but you have to forge the whole motor to sustain that kind of power, not just as easy as correcting internal mods, you are talking whole new engine. Why not start right with more displacement.

Well, when you start talking that kind of power you may as well stop pretending that the 4.6 needs special building and the 5.0 doesn't at this point. OK, the pre 93 302 got some forged pistons. Big deal. It didn't get forged rods, and it sure as hell didn't get a steel crank. It also didn't get 4 or 6 bolt mains (cross bolted no less) nor did it get deep skirts. With the right pistons and rods, the 4.6 block will make in the area of 800-1000 hp without any special race-prep. Beyond about 450 hp you will begin splitting 302 blocks right down the middle. Both engines will need some sort of special attention at these lofty levels.

There is plenty more, but that should be enough to chew on for a while.

Green4.6GT · Jul 31, 2003

you guys quoting nubers have to remember that those numbers are on stock motors... who cares about what it does stock, your motor isnt going to be stock... yea the bullett intake makes about 5 rwhp stock.. put that on a good bottom end and heads and you wont bemaking 5 rwhp extra, on a blown car the bullett intake makes soem good gains.... stuff has to work together, look at the big picture guys, look at what it can do not what it does stock.

for example, if you take a trick flow track heat intake and put it on a stock 5.0 you will probably loose hp and torque across the board...

would anyone doubt that its a better intake than the stock 5.0 equipment? no because if you put freeflowing heads on that motor then it magically works well..

just my .02
-Ryan

KickerStang · Jul 31, 2003

That is exactly what I wanted to know. Thank you for replying.

KenB · Jul 31, 2003

KickerStang said:
That is exactly what I wanted to know. Thank you for replying.

You're sorely mistaken if you think there's no power to be had out of the 2V. With a STOCK shortblock I made 317rwhp/314 rwtq N/A. Since then I have added pullies and an aluminum driveshaft. Based on the old dyno and my trap speeds, I estimate my power to be 330rwhp on a STOCK shortblock N/A.

Aaron 4.6 · Jul 31, 2003

Here, I have done some work for you. This is an aluminum Explorer block. Its using 2V heads. That's about as simple as I can make it.

Here is a 2V block to compare it against... Feel free to show me why they are incompatible.

GTblack_00 · Jul 31, 2003

THANK YOU
I wish I had pics so I could have showed them earlier.

Dale Royster · Jul 31, 2003

Aaron 4.6 said:
Well here is problem #1. You should probably know what in the hell you are talking about before you start making generalizations. It sounds to me like you have never looked at either an aluminum 4.6 block or a CI 4.6 block. If you had you would notice that all bolt hole sizes, spacings, and locations are the same. There is a minor difference in some jacketing, but that's about it. You would also know that Mike Tymensky pucked his spray-bore 5.0 block, and proceeded to bolt all of his FR500 stuff onto a regular 4.6 GT block and race it. You would also know that Steeda puts hot 2V stuff onto aluminum blocks for mid-range torque and weight savings. That's as interchangeable as it gets my friends.

Here is my problem with your argument- you are essentially moaning and complaining about displacement. Its not about power. From bolt-on grocery getters to heads-up NMRA/FFW (see Randy Haywood's win in Atlanta) racing the 4.6 can make as much power as a 5.0. The routes each engine takes might be different due to the nature of the aftermarket, but it can certainly be done.

You complain that there aren't many good head combinations out there, but the reason for that is that the damn factory heads are so good there is no impetus to develop an aftermarket head. My stock 96 DOHC head will flow about 250 cfm (intake). That's more than many out-of-the-box offerings for the 5.0. When you consider that I have about 10% less cylinder volume to fill, that's equivalent to a 5.0 head that flows about 270 cfm. How much better can the aftermarket do while maintaining acceptable port velocity for daily driving?

You complain that you can't stroke a 4.6 to beyond a 302. Well, with a stock bore that's correct, but you can easily take the 4.6 to 324 c.i. and beyond if you are willing to entertain a larger piston. When you look at the ratios, 324/281 * 302 = 348. In other words, just as much percent volume gain can be acheived in a 4.6 as can be acheived in a 302-based stroker (they don't come bigger than 349 for all intents and purposes).

Here is a perfect example of some of your flawed reasoning:

#1- $3000 will buy you a GT-40 longblock. It will not include intake, front engine dress, nor any of the many items needed to successfully implant this engine into your car and get it running. From fasteners to K-members to wiring... you need more than an engine.

#2 OR you could buy a complete 2001 Cobra engine for about that same price. The engine comes with wiring and all accessories. It bolts right into your car and wiring is not too large of an issue.

#3. Read that last sentence again in your quote and ask yourself- why do I see foxes running modulars, but not 96+ cars running pushrods?(there are a few of these to be sure, but not many) Perhaps there is an extremely valuable insight to be gained by wondering why the flow is going mainly in one direction.

Here is some more stuff I have a problem with:

Well, when you start talking that kind of power you may as well stop pretending that the 4.6 needs special building and the 5.0 doesn't at this point. OK, the pre 93 302 got some forged pistons. Big deal. It didn't get forged rods, and it sure as hell didn't get a steel crank. It also didn't get 4 or 6 bolt mains (cross bolted no less) nor did it get deep skirts. With the right pistons and rods, the 4.6 block will make in the area of 800-1000 hp without any special race-prep. Beyond about 450 hp you will begin splitting 302 blocks right down the middle. Both engines will need some sort of special attention at these lofty levels.

There is plenty more, but that should be enough to chew on for a while.

What else can I say, but wow.

Dale Royster · Jul 31, 2003

Aaron 4.6 said:
Here, I have done some work for you. This is an aluminum Explorer block. Its using 2V heads. That's about as simple as I can make it.

Here is a 2V block to compare it against... Feel free to show me why they are incompatible.

The explorer block is the same block used in the Cobra?

NasaGT · Jul 31, 2003

Nice post Aaron 4.6.

A few nits...

I've seen several dynos that show shorties produce 9-10rwhp over stock on the 4.6. I'm not sure why people diss them so much. long tubes put out 20-25, but some of us can't install them due to inspections.

And yes the Bullitt intake produces 5 max rwhp more than stock N/A, but it produces much more than that across the whole curve. Its a better improvement than just 5hp.

Aaron 4.6 · Jul 31, 2003

Fundamentally, the answer is yes. Ford sourced all the aluminum castings from the same supplier. Minor tweaks have occurred over the years, but nothing earth shattering.

KickerStang- I didn't mean to come off as a jerk in either of my posts, although upon reading them again I'm sure that I do. At some point you do get tired of hearing some of the same arguments go round and round and you go right for the jugular. Sorry if I offended...

KickerStang · Jul 31, 2003

All of you,

No one came off as being a jerk, as long as people know what they are talking about, I dont care how they tell me something, as long as it is the truth. I am on here to learn, and I thought I knew alot about Mustangs. This just shows me that I have barely scratched the surface. So KenB, I know you have about the fastes NA 2V out there. Care to inform us how you got to such a good HP level? I know getting those numbers out of a little 281 are not easy. Please fill us in? Is it stroked at all?

yellow5.0cobra · Aug 16, 2003

KickerStang said:
300RWHP NA. You can not put 4V heads on a GT block you need a Cobra block. All I am saying is if you take the stock 2V and compare it to a 5.0 with decent heads, decent intake, shorties, and a mild cam it will make more HP then the 4.6. I am comparing them because the 2V has decent heads, decent intake, decent exhaust manifolds and a stock cam that is decent.

Who LIED to you?

DAM RIGHT YOU CAN PUT 4v heads on a 2v block.

You need a lot of extra parts, but it can and has been done numerous times.

I suggest you learn more about your motor before EVER attempting to even thinking about putting a 5.0 in there...

Modular IS the future of Stangs, learn to get use to it...

Swap a 5.0 into a 99+GT?

Dale Royster

KickerStang

Dale Royster

Dale Royster

Dale Royster

GTblack_00

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Stallion

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Aaron 4.6

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Dale Royster

Dale Royster

NasaGT

Aaron 4.6

KickerStang

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