Switch to a carb. About how much to gain or loose?

88Stangboy · Feb 1, 2006

I was wanting some inputs on about how much would i gain if i switched over to carb. with a Torker II manifold with a 650 Demon carb and a set of long tube headers.

Heres my current set up;

N/A 306, Very mild ported Typhoon intake, fully Ported 71' 302 heads, 2.02 intake, 1.60 exhaust, 303 F cam, Mac shorties, 24# injectors, Ford Racing fuel rails, 75mm throttle body, 73mm C&L, 1.6 roller rockers, smog delete, air condition delete, off road H-pipe w/dumps.

I already have all the info i need to do the swap and i've already heard why i shouldn't, the car isn't street driven that often. I want to do it because i prefer a carburetor, ive got ten times the experience with them. And my gas miliage is already horrible. SO....

Im just wanting to know about how much would i gain with a set of BBK long tube headers, a gasket matched Torker II manifold and a Demon 650cfm carburetor.

Oh and for people who've already done the swap, about how much did it cost you? I was going to get the manifold used, buy a new carb. And a Holley blue pump. I know im going to need a throttle cable, bracket, New fuel lines, carb fittings, etc. About how much did it cost to gather all this? Thanks

87_stang · Feb 1, 2006

I'm not sure about the gains for sure but I'm in the process of doing the same thing. You didn't mention a distributor in your list above so don't forget that. As far as cost's go It just depends on the parts you use. New or used. Low grade or high grade. How much is the fuel pump you are looking at? I haven't decided on a pump yet.

vristang · Feb 1, 2006

Assuming that the air/fuel capabilities are comparable, there will be no power gain by switching from efi to carb, or vice versa. There will be a decrease in efficiency & drivability with the carb (assuming the same power level). But, I think you already know all that.

What you are asking is for someone to compare apples to oranges for you. Unless someone out there has done a similar conversion with similar parts, the comparison may not be possible.

There are three major factors in engine control
power
economy
emissions

efi will let you pick 2 of these rather easily. It will be much tougher to get the same compromise with a carb.

If you are having fuel consumption issues with efi, I would suggest fixing the problem, rather than throwing it away and starting from scratch.

Well, that is my opinion.
Hope I didn't piss you off too much

jason

88Stangboy · Feb 1, 2006

I've decided on a Holley blue pump, im trying to remember here, but i think it goes for about $100ish, give or take a few bucks.

I was going with a brand new carb. I think a 650 demon from Jeg's is about $399 or so. Not to bad.

The intake i want is a Torker II, i was going to gasket match it. I was going used on this part. Clean it up and bolt it on after the gasket matching.

I forgot the dizzy, im going to pick up an 85 GT dizzy. A reman. costs about $50 i've heard.

87_stang · Feb 1, 2006

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I read it!

86bluecobra · Feb 1, 2006

if i had your set-up i would stay fuel injected. If i was swapping the 302 out for a 351w or stroked 351w then i would go carb because of the savings in switching to carb over doing a fuel injected 351w.

87_stang · Feb 1, 2006

If I remember right you will have to get the ignition box and coil to go with that dizzy. I was told the whole ignition system from an 85' will run you about $400-$450 unless you have a parts car to snag it off of. If it helps any I was talking to a guy at Summit the other night and he told me about an HEI distributor w/ built in coil for SBF engines w/ roller cams w/ a 50,000 volt output for $179.95. Part # is sum-850020 if your interested or want to check it out on their website.

88Stangboy · Feb 1, 2006

Well, like i said...
#1.) I prefer carb. I have two carb'd cars in my family and i like them.

#2.) I have fuel consumption issues because my foot in in the throttle all the time, i have no illlusions as to why i get ****ty gas mileage.

#3.) Im trying to clean my engine bay up, and fuel injection doesn't fit into my plans.

#4.) And as i said, the car isn't driven regularly. So i don't give damn about economy, im trying to go fast, cheap. As everyone is. Doens't usually work out.

#5.) My friend Andy is going to buy all my EFI stuff for about $800, so i should come out just under even.

Look, i really only want opinions from people who have actually done the swap or who are thinking of doing the swap. I know all the pro's and con's as to the swap, but im still going to do it. Around my hometown, i get so much **** from people who'v never had their hands on a carb. I appreciate people who are helping me but i don't like people preaching to me about engines, no offense, my dad has been an engine builder/racer for 30 years, i've learned a thing or two, im only 17 years old, i have much to learn, but im old enough to know what im doing here. I personally built the engine thats in my car now, i think i did pretty good myself.....Thanks for everyones input...keep em coming.

88Stangboy · Feb 1, 2006

87_stang said:
If I remember right you will have to get the ignition box and coil to go with that dizzy. I was told the whole ignition system from an 85' will run you about $400-$450 unless you have a parts car to snag it off of. If it helps any I was talking to a guy at Summit the other night and he told me about an HEI distributor w/ built in coil for SBF engines w/ roller cams w/ a 50,000 volt output for $179.95. Part # is sum-850020 if your interested or want to check it out on their website.

Thanks man, as for the dizzy, i got Hi-6 ignition system. So thats all i need on that, just need the steel geared dizzy.

That HEI think sounds interesting. We got one on the Camaro and i like it alot, i've always thought it would be cool to get one on my mustang, never knew they made one for Ford though. I'm going to put some thought into that.

88Stangboy · Feb 1, 2006

86bluecobra said:
if i had your set-up i would stay fuel injected. If i was swapping the 302 out for a 351w or stroked 351w then i would go carb because of the savings in switching to carb over doing a fuel injected 351w.

Thats mainly what im going, i mean in the future im going to be doing alot more to my 306, trying to see what i can get out of it before i get out of colledge and do the 351 swap, so i need to do it a little more cheaply than i've been doing, i work in my uncles shop tearing engines down right now, making $9.50 an hour, so im really needing to do the engine upgrading a little cheaper than fuel injection is allowing me. Im really wanting to swap in a Cleveland. My uncle has one in a Torino he said he'd sell to me for $600, so thats a deal im going to take him up on. Its a 71 351 4V heads. So im wanting to stroke that

86bluecobra · Feb 1, 2006

yah but if you go and buy a intake for a 302 and a 650 demon this will not work on your 351. the carb is to small and intake aswell. now you are buying another carb and another intake. the distributor is to small aswell. you are wasting money.

88Stangboy · Feb 1, 2006

86bluecobra said:
yah but if you go and buy a intake for a 302 and a 650 demon this will not work on your 351. the carb is to small and intake aswell. now you are buying another carb and another intake. the distributor is to small aswell. you are wasting money.

Yea, the deck height on the 351 i higher. And on the cleveland its totally different. I have another 1990 5.0 i can throw this engine in. So its still money in the bank in my opinion. This setup is going to be on this engine for about 2 years, so its worth the money right now. When i pull this engine its probabally going to be swapped into the 90' notch, the engine only has 10,000 miles on it right now, its not my daily driver. I have an old explorer for that. And my buddys is buying the upper and lower intake, the dizzy, 75mm TB, 73mm C&L, CAI all for about $800ish bucks, so im going to come out about even.

Modular2v · Feb 2, 2006

i did the swap....nothing to it all, everything is much easier to work on and now when i change heads/cam i dont have to take the car in for a new tune!

jrichker · Feb 2, 2006

vristang said:
Assuming that the air/fuel capabilities are comparable, there will be no power gain by switching from efi to carb, or vice versa. There will be a decrease in efficiency & drivability with the carb (assuming the same power level). But, I think you already know all that.

What you are asking is for someone to compare apples to oranges for you. Unless someone out there has done a similar conversion with similar parts, the comparison may not be possible.

There are three major factors in engine control
power
economy
emissions

efi will let you pick 2 of these rather easily. It will be much tougher to get the same compromise with a carb.

If you are having fuel consumption issues with efi, I would suggest fixing the problem, rather than throwing it away and starting from scratch.

Well, that is my opinion.
Hope I didn't piss you off too much

jason

That's some of the best advice you'll get anywhere.

Here's a book that will get you started with how the Ford electronic engine control or "computer" works.

Ford Fuel Injection & Electronic Engine Control 1988-1993 by Charles Probst: ISBN 0-8376-0301-3.

It's about $20 from Borders.com see http://www.amazon.com/ . Select boo...any better with a carb than it will with EFI.

88Stangboy · Feb 2, 2006

Thanks Jrichker, but its not that i dont know how to work on EFI, i do, i know what everything does and can usually trace all my electrical woes back without to much trouble, i have to work on it all the time in my uncles shop, i use code scanners, etc. on a daily basis, but like i've been trying to tell all you guys, i just like carbs. Just like all ya'll like EFI, i just like Carb. Plus i think its more of a unique thing to do with a Fox body, you never see them carb'd except for at the track. So its just me wanting for a cleaner underhood look, easier to work on. Most of the time you use your eyes and ears to diagnose problems, which is kinda like a lost art around here. Everyone is so quick to just pull there scanner out and look it up. Yea, at work its the easy as pie to do, but i like the hard way i guess you'd say.

But this thread has gotten totally off target, instead of getting responses from people giving me advice on some of the swap, i've gotten them only preaching to me about how much better EFI is, yes it may be better, more efficient, more popular, but i like carburetors, period. I've been around racing, engine shops, etc. since i was old enough to walk, someone just give me some advice on the swap, please....pretty please.

vristang · Feb 2, 2006

88Stangboy said:
But this thread has gotten totally off target... someone just give me some advice on the swap, please....pretty please.

Point taken.
I didn't mean to piss you off (If I did I apologize), but understand that on this forum, what you asked is a loaded question.

On the cleveland swap...
Be sure to do some research on what is needed for the conversion, and where the parts can be sourced. This is very different from a windsor swap. But, sorry I don't know any of the details. Are the distributors interchangeable? I would guess not. I think motor mounts are different? Intakes aren't. Exhaust will be different. Oil pans will be different? (but that would be needed for a windsor as well).

Wish you luck with the ride :SNSign:

And I give you "mad props, yo" for getting into the hobby at a young age.
(I am trying to connect with the younger generation there, did it work?)

jason

87_stang · Feb 2, 2006

vristang said:
Point taken.
And I give you "mad props, yo" for getting into the hobby at a young age.
(I am trying to connect with the younger generation there, did it work?)

jason

Very fine job bra, You gots it down! WORD

88Stangboy · Feb 2, 2006

Yea, thanks Vristang. Yea the cleveland is a little wider than the 351W. I've heard around the campfire that the waterpump may be an issue, due to it sticking out more or something like that. But thats a goodways into the future. Lol about trying to "connect"...no way in hell i talk like that though. The reason im going with a cleveland is a few reasons, one would be the "Mystic" around the engine, the other is the heads, the 4V heads just flow so damn well, they lack velosity and the stock displacement doens't really take advantage of the port size, so i figured i would stroke it to about 408ish to better take advantage of them. I'll probably work them over a little bit to get them to flow a lil' better. Build it nice and strong to run to about 7,000rpm so the large ports make up for the low velosity.

vristang · Feb 2, 2006

Story of my life, I try to connect with someone and they just laugh at me!

87_stang said:
Very fine job bra, You gots it down! WORD

And when did refering to another man as womens undergarments, become a term of respect?
God I feel old.

88Stangboy, good luck with all the projects you have planned.

Let us know how they go.

Word to your babies momma

jason

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