Symptoms of a bad Toploader output yoke bushing?

65ShelbyClone · Dec 5, 2006

My transmission is used as was the the old yoke I tried. However, before it went in my car, it got a smallblock input shaft, new synchros, and new seals(home installed). I had a problem with the tailhousing seal leaking and it coated the underside of my car with oil. I broke down and bought a new yoke to see if that would fix it, but I didn't replace the seal(just to see if I could get away with it ). I still have a leak and I am going to replace the seal tomorrow, but I'm wondering if perhaps the bushing is bad also and causing enough slop to make the seal leak. How can I tell if it is?

D.Hearne · Dec 6, 2006

Install the new yoke before you attach it to the driveshaft then pop it into the tailhosuing and see how much slop there is. If that bushing's never been replaced, it would be a good idea to do it now.

65ShelbyClone · Dec 6, 2006

Luckily I did in fact do that before I put it back together. There is some slop, but I'm not sure how much is too much.....unless any is too much.

I'd have to pull the tail housing to replace it, wouldn't I?

dennis112 · Dec 6, 2006

65ShelbyClone said:
Luckily I did in fact do that before I put it back together. There is some slop, but I'm not sure how much is too much.....unless any is too much.

I'd have to pull the tail housing to replace it, wouldn't I?

There will be some play between the yoke and the bushing as the fit is not perfect and there must be some room for lubrication. It is not an easy call to make, especially if the seal is in place.

Yes you will need to remove the tail housing in order to replace the bushing. The tailhousing can be removed in the car, but you must remove the shifter, driveshaft, and drain the lube.

You drive the bushing inward with a screwdriver. The new one needs to be driven into place too from the rear, but you need to be careful. I use a special tool for it that just fits inside the bushing. It has a stepped flange on the outside and a handle that you use your hammer on. Lube the inside of the bushing with grease prior to assembly.

Install your seal with a little silicone around the outside. Install the seal as straight as possible and be sure that you have a little grease or lube on the sealing lips prior to installing the yoke.

65ShelbyClone · Dec 6, 2006

Tanks for all the info. Luckily I have three tailshaft seals I got at the parts store(because Autozone sucks and I have to stock up on stuff when they actually have it), so I can try replacing the seal before tearing into the gearbox.

D.Hearne · Dec 6, 2006

The tailseal isn't a hard to find item. Same one fits the C-4's.

65ShelbyClone · Dec 6, 2006

Yeah I know, but like I said, Autozone sucks. The ones here do, anyway. I went to THREE stores trying to get them, and the first two didn't have any. Turns out it's the same type of seal that fits my small-bearing 9" axles. Even the Fort parts deparment first had trouble even finding a part number because they had to look it up in a book being a pre-'80 vehicle. Once they found it, they (slowly) discovered that it had been superceded at least two times. All together it took 15 minutes for them to tell me it would cost $25 for a seal they didn't have.

I got stories, believe me.

69 Rustang · Dec 6, 2006

65ShelbyClone said:
like I said, Autozone sucks. The ones here do, anyway. I went to THREE stores trying to get them, and the first two didn't have any. .

I got stories, believe me.

I am with you. Autozone is the place I try first because of price and the promotion they had where you got a $20 (most recently $10) gift card for spending $100. It was a 20% then 10% discount and their accounting sucked--so if I returned the stuff I bought later I still got the gift card. Can't wait for those doofuses to do that one again!

I have a backup auto parts store that is a really really REALLY good auto parts supply that has almost everything I need in stock. They are a bit more expensive, but on Saturday when I need it now because the wife generously gave me the day to tinker, they have it. For example, they had 2 Lincoln Mark VII rotors in stock--would Autozone have had that--yeah right!!!

Regarding the tailshaft question, well I never replaced mine, so I am absolutely worthless to help you there. Sorry.

Tim65GT · Dec 7, 2006

I replaced the seal and tailshaft bushing on my C4. But my problem wasn't an oil leak. It would vibrate at low speed (20-40 mph) when letting up off the gas and there is no torque on the driveshaft.

It cost $1.75 for the seal and $4.75 for the bushing at a local trans repair shop.

The hardest part was dropping the h-pipe to get to the tailshaft piece.

The yoke was also worn giving about 1/2 the slop, but the new bushing was enough to fix the prob.

65ShelbyClone · Dec 7, 2006

69 Rustang said:
For example, they had 2 Lincoln Mark VII rotors in stock--would Autozone have had that--yeah right!!!

There are two Autozones here out of about 5 between Lancaster and Palmdale cities that seem to have at least half of what I need in stock compared to nothing at all. The really sad part is that Autozone was my last hold out. I gave up on Kragen years ago. I gave up on Pep Boys when they told me they don't carry Champion sparkplugs. I have to resort to having them special order everything. If it's going to be that way, I'll do the ordering myself and the flunkies and stores can go bankrupt for all I care.

[/rant]

Tim65GT said:
It cost $1.75 for the seal and $4.75 for the bushing at a local trans repair shop.

The hardest part was dropping the h-pipe to get to the tailshaft piece.

Now I hate AZ even more. I paid $8 each for my three seals.

65ShelbyClone · Dec 15, 2006

Well, I found out(sadly) that my hunch on a bad bushing was in fact correct. This is a brand new bushing out of a David Kee rebuild kit for reference:

However, that hunch was only partially correct. This is what was in the trans:

In case you're wondering, that is not a tailshaft bushing of any kind. It is in fact a piece of galvanized fence post. It slid right out of the trans and revealed a big oval hole where the real bushing should have gone. My old man SOMEHOW missed this when he put a new tailshaft seal in before I got the trans.

Now I have to change the whole damn tailhousing under the car and I'm pissed the F__ off about it!!! This could have been done while the trans was apart on the bench!!!

65ShelbyClone · Dec 17, 2006

I drained the oil out of the trans today and the magnetic plug was covered with a black and silver blob of crap. The oil itself looks like a metal milkshake. I haven't disassembled anything yet because I'm not sure what to do.

1. Part of me wants to just flush it with solvent, fix the tailhousing, run a few oil changes through it, and see what happens. Short of a complete teardown, that would probably be the most effective way to get rid of the fallout.

2. Part of me wants to avoid the half-assery that led to this, avoid the possibility of wrecking my new input shaft, and just put together another fresh Toploader from all the spare parts. The input shaft is mine, the rest of the trans is my dad's and he got it for free.

3. Another part of me wants to wash my hands of any involvement with my old man's transmissions and just take the opportunity to get a T5 or Tremec.

Maybe I'll just flush it and let the damn thing fall apart and I'll give it back as a 100lb POS.
[/rant]

Thoughts and/or opinions?

D.Hearne · Dec 17, 2006

I'd replace the tailhousing and bushing, flush the transmission and refill with fresh 90W-140 and let her ride. Toploaders are tough as nails, that metal in there probably didn't hurt anything. You think yours looked bad, I took one that had sat outdoors under an oak tree without a top cover for years, cleaned the dirt and leaves out, flushed it repeatedly with diesel and oil and got the thing shifting like new. When I did tear it down to replace the bearings, the countershaft needle bearings looked like new. You'd never do this with a newer aluminum transmission like a T-5.

65ShelbyClone · Dec 17, 2006

D.Hearne said:
I'd replace the tailhousing and bushing, flush the transmission and refill with fresh 90W-140 and let her ride. Toploaders are tough as nails, that metal in there probably didn't hurt anything.

I feel better hearing that. There are no more than about 700 miles on the whole setup, probably closer to 500.

I'm curious though, why 90w-140 over 80w-90? Also, I hear this debate over using the older spec GL-4 oil which is hard to find versus the newer and common GL-5. Does it matter which one a Toploader gets? I know a parts store that has 90w-140 GL-4 in gallon bottles.

D.Hearne · Dec 17, 2006

David Kee recommends 90W-140, I do as well. All I've ever run. I don't worry about the other specs. These old 4 speeds are not sophisticated animals, they'll run with just about anything you put in em. The Heavier viscosity is needed to deal with heat buildup.

65ShelbyClone · Dec 17, 2006

Sounds good to me. That parts store I mentioned appears to be the only place able(more like willing) to get Toploader gaskets also.

65ShelbyClone · Dec 21, 2006

Well, here's a comparison.

I'm just not sure how to position the oil hole in the new bushing when I install it. I assume it goes down toward the oil slot, otherwise the oil wouldn't flow into it. It might not matter since the bushing I knocked out of the good housing didn't have an oil hole.

D.Hearne · Dec 21, 2006

I don't know if I or someone else mentioned it, but David Kee sells new tailshaft housings. He or a good machinst might even be able to repair yours.

65ShelbyClone · Dec 21, 2006

Yeah, I saw Kee's tailhousings, but $300 isn't in the budget at the moment. I ust used the other good housing and put a new bushing and seal in it.

My dad was looking at the wallowed out housing and already has plans to fix it. All he has to do is center the housing on the seal bore, bore out the oval, and press a steel sleeve in there good and hard. More power to him.

While under the car I found out that one of my axles is leaking on the 9" I just put in. It never ends when you're broke.

Symptoms of a bad Toploader output yoke bushing?

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