T&L Engines F-up...

hhead · Nov 15, 2008

I 've read a lot of problems with T & L. And a few with the EXACT same cam and lifter problem.
If this motor has been broke in and dyno'd, how is it going to wipe a lobe now???
It's been supposedly broke in and then flogged on a dyno???
Did he change the oil before he got it? NO reason since this is a brand new motor. balanced, blueprinted, and don't last 60 miles.
He gives a 12k warranty.
With less than 60 miles, it should have seen more thrashing on the dyno than he EVER will on the street
I don't see it. If it were NEVER broken in by the builder, then yes, maybe the owner had something to do with the cam problem. But, broke in, DYNO'ed, ????? As in 6k rpm's
Even if the motor sat for months after break in, unless you put the wrong oil when you got it, I don't buy it.
Did you change the oil when you got it? Before start up?
The backwards head gasket is all you need to know the quality of the shop.
And NO, I don't buy a pro engine builder, MISTAKENLY put the gaskets on BACKWARDS!!!
This is a supposed PRO engine builder. Maybe me or you might, but I doubt that also, since WE know, 'Do it right the first time'
I don't see any love coming your way.....
You spend more locally, but you can be there at break in, so you KNOW it's running right BEFORE you take delivery.

my9302002 · Nov 15, 2008

I agree with H here. One of the main selling points of these motors is that they are dyno tuned and come delivered ready to go with a DVD of the motor being broken in on the dyno. T&L at the minimum should at least keep the dialogue open, and the practice of not returning e-mails is very bad business and will lead to lost future revenue in this day and age of the NET.
OTOH, there is always 2 sides of a story, the guy with the bad motor should tell T&L about this forum and have them come on and discuss things in an open manner. We all could benefit and T&L could really turn this thing into something HUGELY positive if they care to do so. I see a huge PR opportunity for T&L here.
YMMV,
Andrew
68 conv...in progress

D.Hearne · Nov 15, 2008

hhead said:
I 've read a lot of problems with T & L. And a few with the EXACT same cam and lifter problem.
If this motor has been broke in and dyno'd, how is it going to wipe a lobe now???
It's been supposedly broke in and then flogged on a dyno???
Did he change the oil before he got it? NO reason since this is a brand new motor. balanced, blueprinted, and don't last 60 miles.
He gives a 12k warranty.
With less than 60 miles, it should have seen more thrashing on the dyno than he EVER will on the street
I don't see it. If it were NEVER broken in by the builder, then yes, maybe the owner had something to do with the cam problem. But, broke in, DYNO'ed, ????? As in 6k rpm's
Even if the motor sat for months after break in, unless you put the wrong oil when you got it, I don't buy it.
Did you change the oil when you got it? Before start up?
The backwards head gasket is all you need to know the quality of the shop.
And NO, I don't buy a pro engine builder, MISTAKENLY put the gaskets on BACKWARDS!!!
This is a supposed PRO engine builder. Maybe me or you might, but I doubt that also, since WE know, 'Do it right the first time'
I don't see any love coming your way.....
You spend more locally, but you can be there at break in, so you KNOW it's running right BEFORE you take delivery.

Wiped cam lobes don't always show up on the break-in run. Some do, some don't. The two I had did in the first 10 minutes of run time. In each case it was a single lobe, and a lifter that failed to spin on startup. I've heard of others taking a few weeks to happen, in these instances, multiple lobes and lifters were involved and would have been attributed to the lubricant and addditives (or lack thereof)

hhead · Nov 15, 2008

Again, these wiped lobes are from 'lack of proper additives and lubricants'. They broke it in, dyno'ed it. Didn't they use the proper lube?
1/2 hour break in, three to five pulls to get a carbed street motor dialed in(to 6k rpms no less) And it's gonna wipe a lobe after this?
Like I said, the BACKWARDS head gasket is a dead give away!
I would be skeptical if they actually dyno'ed it. Maybe an engine stand was more like it, just to do a break in.
Because anyone spending the time to hook up an engine to a dyno, is going to flog it
What kind of engine guy are you if you don't?
And it will wipe a lobe after this?
I still don't see it.
Again, If they DIDN'T break it in, or dyno it, then yeah okay.
But that is part of their deal, break in and dyno.
BACKWARDS head gasket.... need I say more.

D.Hearne · Nov 15, 2008

hhead said:
Again, these wiped lobes are from 'lack of proper additives and lubricants'. They broke it in, dyno'ed it. Didn't they use the proper lube?
1/2 hour break in, three to five pulls to get a carbed street motor dialed in(to 6k rpms no less) And it's gonna wipe a lobe after this?
Like I said, the BACKWARDS head gasket is a dead give away!
I would be skeptical if they actually dyno'ed it. Maybe an engine stand was more like it, just to do a break in.
Because anyone spending the time to hook up an engine to a dyno, is going to flog it
What kind of engine guy are you if you don't?
And it will wipe a lobe after this?
I still don't see it.
Again, If they DIDN'T break it in, or dyno it, then yeah okay.
But that is part of their deal, break in and dyno.
BACKWARDS head gasket.... need I say more.

Yea, a wiped lobe or lobes can happen well after a break-in run. If you doubt that, you ain't been around long.

woodsnake · Nov 15, 2008

I wiped a cam in my 68, killed the poor thing! My problem was totally wrong valve train, had nothing to do with additives....

hhead · Nov 15, 2008

You just get a fresh motor from the dyno shop. It's been rode hard and put away wet.
Tuned on the dyno for either max performance, or max economy. Max performance assumed.
Why would I mess with it at all.
I got my motor from the builders more than seven years ago. the valve covers have NEVER been off. The only dialing in is timing. Performance or economy.
Again, why would a person mess with the valvetrain at all, if it was properly set up. And again, we're talking a blueprinted motor. It's set up right. Why go thru all trouble of hundredths, and then do a half ass assembly, which includes the valvetrain.
Unless I missed something with the OP, that they messed with the motor.....
BACKWARDS head gasket.
NO reputable engine builder would do this. This is SERIOUS screw up on a professional builders part. A home mechanic okay. A pro NO WAY!!!
That tells you everything you need to know about your motor.
EVERYTHING is suspect.
I'd check ALL my tolerances and specs, that they jive with the build sheet. If not. TEAR DOWN!!!
The sad part is, you've already got it tore half apart with the heads off. I'd tear it down, just for my own piece(peace?) of mind.
I'd hate to hear that you put it back together, and the oil pump went out. Ouch!!

hhead · Nov 15, 2008

Oh, I reread all the posts. After the reassembly, then second time lifters were toast.....
Okay.
Now that's on the OP.
I still don't buy the BACKWARDS head gasket, though.
That goes down to assembly technique. And failure to follow directions.
At this point with two head gaskets, lifters, cam...
Tear down and start over.

70vert · Nov 17, 2008

I'm on the T&L ride too . . .

ordered mine about 6 weeks ago. I'll be sure to add any impressions, positive or negative, to this thread. It all boiled down to price, AL block crate offering, (the idea being that they have some experience with the Dart AL block, and that they are a Mass-Flo approved engine builder.

I do have to agree that the customer service, not responding to emails, etc., is a valid criticism. I asked them weeks ago for a "no later than" engine build date (could be 8 months out, whatever, I just wanted an outside date) and was told they'd be able to get back to me in a few days. 2 weeks later, nothing, even when I CC'ed their customer service contact.

I have to say, though, that crappy email correspondence and not being able to hit a delivery date target are endemic to the mustang aftermarket. Maybe in 5 or 10 years, not so much, but that's the current state of things.

Except for Bruce Couture of Modern Driveline. I had a Q about my TKO600 a few days ago and he got back with a well written response in a day. Classy guy, deserves your business!

DK832 · Nov 18, 2008

My friend is tearing the whole engine down as suggested, we'll let you know what's found.

Little O/T but I just had an A+ customer service experience. Had a Speedhut Revolution memory tach go bad on me (during race day, argh!) and called them the following monday. They asked for a serial #, checked the records and said "oh, yeah that's a Gen1 model and we've seen some bad ones. That's our problem and we're sorry, could you please send it back to us and we'll rebuild it to a Gen2, free of charge". Just got it back yesterday, free shipping to Denmark and all. This is a smallish company BTW. WoW!!!

hhead · Nov 18, 2008

70vert said:
I have to say, though, that crappy email correspondence and not being able to hit a delivery date target are endemic to the mustang aftermarket. Maybe in 5 or 10 years, not so much, but that's the current state of things.

Except for Bruce Couture of Modern Driveline. I had a Q about my TKO600 a few days ago and he got back with a well written response in a day. Classy guy, deserves your business!

Your last paragraph says it all. It's NOT the state of things. It's this company's way of doing business!
Hopefully things work out for you!!

70vert · Nov 19, 2008

No, I meant to point out that Bruce Couture is the exception to the rule, but the rule still stands. I should also mention Evolution Motorsports. Sure, their product ship date slipped, but my 3-link and Watt's are top-notch and Michael of EvM deserves some sort of lifetime customer service award - always easy to contact and great advice. I would order the 3-link again in a heartbeat, even given the wait from introduction to availability. I won't mention any other small vendors that I have had issues with, but I can think of about 5 off the top of my head and more if I delve deeper.

The bigger houses like NPD and Summit do a great job of timely shipping and customer service. (NPD is especially strong in both regards)

A lot of these small guys are technically knowledgeable, but lack people skills. You see it all the time in small cottage businesses when an innovative founder has great technical skill but poor organizational and people skills. There are entire books written on the subject.

By the way, the T&L guys did get back to me in the past couple days and they've had a big email backlog to catch up on so I should have my answer soon. I don't mind a long wait as long as the product is solid.

nemesis418 · Nov 19, 2008

Update :
I got an answer today from T&l !
And its good news... They will give me following items:

Flat tappet camshaft

Hydraulic lifters

Fel Pro Head gaskets

ARP? Head Studs

Rod and main bearings

Oil pump

And to end it all ive accepted it so i can have my engine built again i just hope they will send it fast !

Tommy

DK832 · Nov 20, 2008

That's good news! Better late than never I guess. But hey, you only lost one season....

Dave Dubrough · Nov 22, 2008

I've never heard of those guys. I guess everyone can make a mistake from time to time. I hope they took care of your friend on it. That was clearly a mess up they did. It'd be only right for them to at least do SOMETHING for your friend with the head gasket problem.

You guys ever see this guys engines?
Bad-Ass Racing Engines - custom street and race engines.

I bought one of his DVDs on how to rebuild carbs. It's a really good DVD but WAY beyond what I am running on my little stock 66 coupe.

D.Hearne · Nov 23, 2008

nemesis418 said:
Update :
I got an answer today from T&l !
And its good news... They will give me following items:

Flat tappet camshaft

Hydraulic lifters

Fel Pro Head gaskets

ARP? Head Studs

Rod and main bearings

Oil pump

And to end it all ive accepted it so i can have my engine built again i just hope they will send it fast !

Tommy

Make sure to inspect the lifter bottoms before installing them. Poorly machined lifter bottoms were a part of the rash of cam failures of the last few years. The bottoms should have a slightly domed face.

paxton66 · Nov 23, 2008

Dave Dubrough said:
You guys ever see this guys engines?
Bad-Ass Racing Engines - custom street and race engines.

I bought one of his DVDs on how to rebuild carbs. It's a really good DVD but WAY beyond what I am running on my little stock 66 coupe.

In reponse to your question about Bad-Ass Racing Engines, I have had the pleasure to deal personally with the owner/builder, Arron Johnson on an engine build for my 66 coupe and cannot say enough good things about him and his business practice. (I am not the only one based on other testimonials on his website)

I realize this thread is not about which engine builder to use but rather about issues that may develop from using the wrong builder. I too have been the victim of compromise when dealing with entities that have no apparent business sense.

Although businesses like Bad-Ass Racing may be the exception to the rule, no one should have to settle for mediocrity regardless of their budget.

My point is that there are plenty of examples of well run businesses out there that will go out of their way to help you get what you want. Forums like this allow us to share important information based on our experience about those companies in order to help us make an informed decision.

70vert · Nov 24, 2008

Also have heard good things about Bad Ass

They seem like a great company and have heard lots of good things. They seem to be part of the car culture near Infineon Raceway up there in Sonoma wine country. They were on my personal "short list" since I live in NorCal, and were money truly no object I would definitely have gone with them. If you've got the money, by all means, go with them - they seem like a top notch builder, but with somewhat of a long wait.

Time will tell if I should have gone with a more expensive builder . . .

nemesis418 · Jan 6, 2009

Hmm

Well theres no news from Denmark yet..... Havent got any parts yet

And no response from them again so i can just hope that they actually will send the parts ..

Thanks for the heads up Hearne

Tommy

nemesis418 · Jan 6, 2009

70-Vert

Im sure that there is a good chance for you to get a good engine from T&L but if the s¤¤¤ hits the fan ............

Tommy

T&L Engines F-up...

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