the antifreeze thread (very long)

TheRedBlur

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Jul 7, 2003
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article out of motor age magazine. found it in my shop :nice: bear with me throught the first bit, it gets interesting. I'll mark if you want to skip through the crap and get right to teh useful stuff. :nice:

CHANGING COOLANT TODAY [In some ways antifreeze has changed dramatically since we (or our parents) were kids. In some ways it hasn't changed at all. And in some ways, say some suppliers, it's changing back... Or is it?]

We're approaching the season when, in the mid 1950's - the "happy days" era - Milwaukee's Howard Cunningham would have had mechaninc Arthur Fonzarelli "winterize" his DeSoto. are you old enough to remember real winterizing? The car would get a once-over inspection, a tune up, snow tires mounted and an oil change from SAE30 to 20W (or possibly 10W if closer to Christmas) The cooling system also got a special service.

The Fonz would always at least check antifreeze concentration with his hydrometer and adjust, if needed. But because winter in Wisconsin has always been serious and because Mr.C was always conscientious, ever other year Fonzie would flush the system and install fresh antifreeze. They could choose from the so-called "permanent" ethylene glycol-based products offered by several reputable suppliers. all were suitable for virtually any car or light truck.

The word permanent didn't fool Howard. He knew you couldn't leave the stuff in forever. He remembered the temperature gauge in his dad's car, marked "alcohol boils" at just under 150 degrees farenheit, the boiling point for methanol (wood alcohol). It wasn't unusual for the methanol some still used as antifreeze in the 1930's to boil off - even during winter driving - robbing the engine of freeze protection. That's why ethylene glycol based antifreeze was developed in the late '20's. It was permanent in that it wouldn't stealthily boil off or otherwise loose freeze protection. But after a couple years' use, the corrosion-inhibiting properties of accompanying substances would give out and the coolant would need to be renewed.

By the mid-1970's, winterizing had changed. Howard's son Richard didn't need to change oil viscosity because he used SAE 10W-30 in his plymouth year round. He considered his radial-ply tires adequate for winter use, too. One thing stayed the same, however: Every two years, he would have fresh, ethylene glycol antifreeze installed. It was essentialy the same antifreeze that had gone into his dad's DeSoto, but nearly nobody bothered using hte word "permanent" anymore.

Fast forward to 1998. If, tow years previously, a balding Richard had stuck with Mopars or had bought a ford instead of his 1996 oldsmobile, it would be time to renew his coolant. But starting with 1996 models, the factory fill for General Motors (GM) was Dex-Cool, with a recommended five year/100,000 mile (later 150,000 mile) replacement interval.

MARK!! :banana:

Today, you can still buy antifreeze much like the products Howard and Richard used. It hasn't always been green - never had to be but usually is - and it's acquired the nickname "green". It's suitable for just about any car or light truck, provided it was built before 1996. That's when things started to get interesting.

Okay, they got interesting even before that. During the 1970s and '80s, aluminum became increasingly popular for engine castings and radiators. the change was made to save weight, a direct result of the entergy crises of the era. Corrosion-inhibiting packages used in antifreeze had to change consequently because protection strategies that worked fine with cast iron and copper/brass weren't always right for aluminum.

[BOLD]SILICATE EVOLUTION[/B]
Temperatures near the exhaust valves in aluminum heads can get hot enough to boil away coolant - not necessarily from the entire system - just in pockets. The boiled off coolant can't go anywhere, it condenses back within the system; collant may ebb and flow in the area. Obviously, this has the potential to erode and otherwise damage the aluminum. In the 1970's, coolant chemists began adding silicates to help protect it.
Sometimes, silicate content was high enough that gelatinous blobs could drop out of suspension and clog the cooling system. In cars and light trucks, this wasn't likely unless someone topped off the system with too much straight antifreeze. In heavy-duty trucks, it could happen if someone got carried away charging the system.
By the 1990s, silicates had been made more stable and effective in smaller amounts; the dropout problem became less common though it may still occur in cases of silicate-overcharging. But when GM started using Dex-Cool as their factory fill wtih the '96 models, teh picture changed more radically.

BASIC COOLANT CHEMISTRY
Glycols aret he key ingredients in most antifreeze manufactured since about 1927. Propylene-glycol is appreciated by many, as it's less toxic than the more common ethylene-glycol
Mixing glycol with water lowers the freeze point of each. Plain ethylene-glycol freezes at 8 degrees farenheit. While plain water can actually carry heat away from an engine more effectively than a glycol/water mix, this mix has a higher boiling point than water alone, amking more-efficient operating temperatures possible while providing boil-over protection. Overheating is likely with more than 70 percent antifreeze in a cooling system.
The vast majority of coolant content is glycol/water. corrosion inhibitors only make up 2-5% of the mix, but they, and the dyes that are sometimes included, determine how the fluid is described.

Think you know something about antifreeze? So did I. But after two weeks of researching today's coolants one thing became evident: It's easy to get confused.
Here's one thing that's certain: There are three basic types of antifreeze available and in broad use today. They include traditional, green coolant; Dex-Cool, factory fill for GM since model year (MY) '96; and the Ford/Chrysler-spec fluid, also called G-05. Ford began using it in MY '01 and chrysler followed a year later.
We spoke with experts from four suppliers whose coolant products have been around, in one form or aonother, long enough that fonzie and Mr. C would have recongized theim. While there are other reputable antifreeze suppliers, the ones we consulted offer a cross section of the industry. Tow produce "universal" long-life coolants; one of these also makes Dex-Cool, while the ohter produces a G-05. Two offer GM-style Dex-Cool, as well as G-05. Each provided convincing reasons for offering their current lineup of products.
 
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Feeling thier oats lol

Traditional, "green" antifreeze inhibitors are often called inorganic additive technology products. Some say inorganic "acid" technology; either way, it's abbreviated "IAT". In a nutshell, most corroson-fighting additives used are inorganic chemicals. shortly after fres, traditional coolant is installed the oinorganic phosphates and silicated have laid down a corrosion/erosion fighting coating inside the cooling system. Not only do they work quickly; however, they can deplete relatively quickly too. that's why the typical replacement interval for green coolant is 24 months, although some ford manuals had specified a four-year interval.

Dex-Cool (actually a performance rating) is usually orange but is sometimes pink, and it is considered Organic-additive technology (OAT). Inhibitors may vary, but all coolants recognized as dex-cool include 2-ethylhexanoic acid (2-EHA). Coolants in this category don't lay down a coating. Instead, they encourage the formation of, as well as help preserve, the self-protective layers that naturally develop over time on both iron and aluminum. This process uses up additives much more slowly that with traditional coolant.
Here in North America Ford may avoid Dex-Cool, but chevron/texaco says Ford of Europe uses their dex-cool formulation as factory fill. Why? there are no phosphates in dex-cool. Many European carmakers avoid phosphates. Why? Peak says it's because of hte very hard water commonly found in Europe. European water's high mineral content could cause the phosphates to drop out of suspension and form rust-creating deposits.
Here at home, starting with MY '01, ford and chrysler use the hybrid formula, G-05 inhibitor technology. Though chemically similar, chrysler's factory-fill coolant is orange while ford's is (usually) yellow. The "don't use orange coolant" sticker on some ford coolant resivoirs is evidently their way of saying to avoid dex-cool. Ford blamed the dex-cool ingredient 2-EHA for a gasket problem when they tried it with some V8's, so it's absent. But other organics are used in G-05 for the same reason as 2-EHA - to maintian those helpful oxide layers that form on metal surfaces. Meanwhile, inorganic silicates are included to help quickly coat metal surfaces that might become exposed as a result of cavitation erosion on water pump impellers or in boil-off pockets.
By the way, we mentioned certain coolants as "factory fill" for certain automakers. Well, consider a vehicle's real identity, not just its name, before leaping to a conclusion about what it came with. For example the pontiac vibe is really a toyota matrix, and it doesn't come with dex-cool. Toyota's factory fill coolant is red. though it might appear orange if you look too quickly.
 
Nice article redblur. Hope others read this, for lots of ppl cannot understand why to run coolant when water works fine. Failing to realize that it contains lubricant for the water pump and anti corrosive agents to keep things like the freeze plug in the 96 explorer i was working on from just falling out w/ rust.
 
So, what to use?

No suprise here: There's more than one school of thought about what to install at flush-and-fill time. A safe - and obvious - course of action is to use whatever came from the factory or its aftermarket equivalent. With domestic vehicles this generally means dex-cool for '96 and newer GM; G-05 for the '01 and later ford and '02 and later chrysler; and green for anything older.
But to match the factory fill, you should check your manuals for exceptions, such as some '98 chryslers that were shipped with a dex-cool equivalent. you might check TSBs, too, in case the factroy eventually regretted its original coolant choice. But even in its simplest terms, this means you need space to stock three different coolant types, and that's just for american makes.
Meanwhile, for asian and european brands, one alternative could be to buy from the OEM. There are at least three varieties of japanese coolant aone. You can see where this is going. Is buying antifreeze going to be as specific as ordering a radiator or heater core - make, model, year?
Maybe not. some of our experts offer guidance on coolant choices for domestics and at least some imports, as you'll see shortly.

ok guys, I'm tapped out, I'll post more of the article after lunch and a shower :nice:
 
So - I have put some YELLOW Advance Auto Parts brand (compare to Prestone) long life 5yr/150k mile coolant (it says it is compatable with ANY coolant) with 1 bottle of Water Wetter mixed 60/40 after I flushed it for 20 minutes in my 1993 GT 5.0 HO - will this be ok? I noticed after I did this 2 weeks ago that now I have a drip coming from the water pump weep hole - coincidence probabaly since it is the original 94k mile pump 13 yrs old now. I am getting ready to change out the pump and t-stat and I was thinking I would capture, filter out and re-use it since it is BRAND NEW and no rust flakes/sludge in it.
 
I personally would not recommend using a dex-cool/G-05 mixed with green (IAT) coolant. they carry different weights, so they don't mix well, one wants to sit on bottom, and the other on top. I'll post up more of the article later, it addresses mixing types, and the validity of "compatible with all types" antifreezes, anyways, I'm gonna go drink with some buds. :nice:
 
Prestone

Honeywell's Prestone product line includes a GM-approved dex-cool, equivalent to factory fill. Literature accompanying "prestone dex-cool extended life 5-150" antifreeze/coolant also recommends it for use in other domestic makes as well as several European and Asian brands. For several years prestone offered this coolant alongside their traditional green antifreeze, which has been phased out. The traditional fluid has been replaced by "prestone all-makes all-models extended life" coolant.
This begs the question, "if all products are extended life and one is demed suitable for all makes and models, why keep offering a product that was initially designed for one manufacturer's vehicles?"
That's a decision for the marketing people, says Peter Woyciesjes, Prestone's group leader for cooland research and development. According to Woyciesjes, the all-makes/all-models coolant meets the performance specs set out by GM in terms of freeze and boil-over protection as well as erosion and corrosion inhibition and interaction with cooling system materials.
Woyciesjes and R&D director Richard Courtney say prestone's OAT-based All-makes/All-models coolant also meets performance requirements of the Ford/Chrysler G-05 fluid. "We haven't changed our stance," says Woyciesjes. "We design antifreezes that can go into any vehicle. The only change has been that we've gone away from the old, yellow bottle (green fluid) to the new extended life-type coolant."
Woyciesjes says most import-vehicle antifreeze is OAT-based with some variations in thier inhibitor packages and all-makes/models is, as you might guess, preston'es recommendation for imports.
 
Peak

Old world industries' PEAK antifreeze line still includes conventional, green antifreeze as well as a fluid designed to meet current Chrysler/Ford specs (PEAK extended life CF-EXL), and two universal coolants )PEAK long life, and peak global lifetime).
Frank cook, PEAK's technical director, says there are both good and bad reasons for OEMs to insist that a certain coolant be used in their vehicles. The fact that what they're calling for may be the only fluid they've tested and approved can be justified. But, he adds, they also want to sell thier own coolants.
PEAK offers a Ford/Chrysler spec antifreeze, but Cook insists Old World's own testing shows their universal products work fine in those cars, too. "All these cars are made of essentially the same metals," he notes, "with some variability in elastomers but by and large there's not even a lot of difference there. Certainly, almost any coolant, from green to amber to yellow, can be used in any car if you do a flush and fill."
Cook adds that under the Magnuson-Moss Warratny Protection Act, OEMs cannot void a warranty because non-OEM parts or fluids are used, as long as they meet applicable performance specs.