think i just trashed my 289

ashford · Jun 29, 2006

a few years ago i rebuilt a 289 for my falcon put about 3000 miles on it then traded it out for 302 efi. that was a little over a year ago. then about a week ago i bought a set of afr 165's for it and popped it in my capri. when i had the heads off the bores looked just like they fresh out of the machine shop less the carbon at the top. along with it i installed a isky 280 mega cam and a new tci c4(replaced worn out e303 cammed 302 w/t5, ported 289 heads). on first start up it knocked at idle for awhile, it sounded like flywheel to bell plate hitting. so i shut it down and bent the plate away a little. the noise mostly went away. took it for a short drive, and returned to check the rocker arms(some valve noise). all adjusments were good, contact patch on valve tip centered. so i cranked it for awhile while watching and listening and #1 intake clickes when it closes?!?!?. the retainer dosnt hit the rocker, pushrod dosnt' hit the head wtf. so i cranked it some more then noticed the oil looked sorta metallic, thought new cam and lifters probably initial wear. curiosity got me and i put a magnet in a rubber glove , it's not magnetic. (insert choice words here) i think i took out a main on a low milage motor i changed the oil right before startup and even primed the system. any other things you guys can think of, im lost other than bearings, and that shouldnt of happened.

iskwezm · Jun 29, 2006

cam going flat?????wouldnt bearing be a goldish material

SoCalCruising · Jun 29, 2006

How did you break in the new cam? That's a flat tappet cam, isn't it?

Separately, there has been a rash of failed cam lobes due to cheap (Chinese) lifters and less critical lube components in current OEM-type oils. Racing oils, (Red Line, RP, etc.) have the correct additives.

iskwezm · Jun 29, 2006

SoCalCruising said:
Separately, there has been a rash of failed cam lobes due to cheap (Chinese) lifters and less critical lube components in current OEM-type oils.

Thats funny you mention that. When i was high school we were swapping cams about once a month and never had a problem. I had my first cam go flat last year and also heard of others too.

180 Out · Jun 29, 2006

Unless your cam and lifters are made of aluminum I would not expect a flat cam. Since the bottom end had 3000 miles on it I would not expect a bearing prob. So think about it, what about this combo is new and is made of aluminum? That's where I'd look, at the new AFR heads.

D.Hearne · Jun 29, 2006

I'd say he wiped a cam lobe on #1. Or spun a rod bearing. Measure the lift at the rocker and see if it jives with the lift specs.

A67StangMaster · Jun 29, 2006

This once happend to me. I had accendently droped a grade 8 nut into the bottom end. This is what i think happend it some how got into a place where it didnt fall off? but when i got to running the engine the nut came lose and hit my cam thus breaking a peace off my lifter. It felt like I broke the block in half.. but it kept running?
I stoped the car drianed the oil took off the oil pan and looked at the pan and what do you know a bolt and a peace of metal from the lifter. I took all the lifters out replace them looked at the cam AND AMASINGLY IT WAS NOT EVEN SCRACHED WOW. Cams are pretty dam strong.

I would guess that your having your cam eat away your lifters make sure you have the right lifters for your setup and the right oil makes a differance. make it think untill it sit in right then use light oil.

180 Out · Jun 29, 2006

From the OP:

then noticed the oil looked sorta metallic, thought new cam and lifters probably initial wear. curiosity got me and i put a magnet in a rubber glove , it's not magnetic.

Although I don't understand the putting the magnet in a glove part, I understand this statement to mean that the filings in the oil are non-ferrous.

1320stang · Jun 29, 2006

he did it so if there were any magnetic filings, when he pulled the magnet out, they wouldn't be stuck to the magnet.

One of the problems with installing cams lately is that oil manufacturers have greatly cut down on the amount of zinc they put into their oil. Hate to say it but GM makes a good product called EOS that's an additive that you can use on an engine with a fresh cam change. I think Valvoline racing oil still has a bunch of zinc in it still. Once the cam is broke in, you can use oil with less zinc in it, it's only needed for the breaking in period.

180 Out · Jun 29, 2006

1320stang said:
One of the problems with installing cams lately is that oil manufacturers have greatly cut down on the amount of zinc they put into their oil.

Here's something I posted to the Vintage Mustang Forum on June 16. Sorry about the giant hijacking of the thread:

The grapevine's been buzzing a little bit lately with the idea that modern oils are lacking in zinc and phosphorous, to the detriment of old flat tappet cam equipped engines. According to the buzz, these chemicals create a sacrificial layer on the wear surfaces. Also according to the buzz, these chemicals have been removed from most of the readily available brands of oil, because if they get burned and go out the tailpipe they clog the cats on emission-controlled cars. Finally, the buzz says that only "heavy duty" (i.e., diesel engine) oils like Rotella, or race oils like Redline or Valvoline Race Oil, are safe to use with a flat tappet cam.

But check these charts that I found, all dated c. 2005, showing the zinc and phosphorous content of many, many different brands:

If you look at the zinc columns in these charts, you'll see that the brands with "full strength" zinc fall in the range of 1200-1500 ppm, that almost no brands fall between 0-100 ppm, and that the rest are between 700 and 900 ppm. So it appears that the "zinc-free oils" scenario misstates the reality. In fact, you're hard pressed to find an oil with less than about 60% of the zinc of a "full strength" brand.

The same holds true for phosphorous.

Now there's another angle to the "zero zinc" buzz: that there's a "bad" zinc called zinc-diaryl-dithiophosphate, and a "good" zinc called zinc-dialkyl-dithiophosphate. Maybe modern oils all use the bad zinc, and it's the bad zinc that causes cam failures. I don't know. But if these charts are accurate, it's apparent that "zinc-free" is a misstatement.

D.Hearne · Jun 29, 2006

Part of the wiped lobes is also due to the installer's using too much lube (like I did on my first wiped cam). I lathered the cam and lifter with moly lube then fired it up after priming the oil system with Pennzoil 20W-50. What wiped the lobe wasn't a lack of zinc, it was the failure of the lobe to spin in it's bore when it fired up. No spin, and all the zinc in the world ain't gonna save the lobe it's riding on. There was soo much lube, that was so thick and slick, that the cam lobe couldn't "get a grip" on the lifter bottom to set it in motion. After the failed run-in, I called Comp Cams and talked with the rep. We both came to the same conclusion as to why the failure happened. But he also added the part about the oil. He suggested using a non detergent oil to break it in. I did just that and instead of slathering the lobe and lifters with lube, I just used a thin film on both, but none on the lifter's sides. Only motor oil went there. The break-in with that cam went without a hitch. My next failure, I used the same method to prep it, but got in a hurry and fired it off in 30 degree weather. I knew I should have waited for warmer temps to let the oil thin some and I was right. That cam also wiped a lobe due to a non spinning lifter. Both cams wiped a single lobe. If this was due to a lack of zinc or other additives, or it was a defective cam core, chances are there would have been more than a single lobe wiped.

ashford · Jun 29, 2006

for breakin oil i used cenex super tms 15w 40 which is a step up from 518superlube(rotella equivalent).used the lube supplied with the cam and put oil on the lifters(melling). whats in the oil is light it stays suspended. thinking i may have a little eccentric to timing cover issue but not sure. i cut open the old oil filter from before the swap and it looked similar. also im staring to think afr steel parts are junk. half of the rocker studs wobbled when i pulled them to anti seize them. used arp studs from old engine. the rockers pointed slightly to themselves on a cylinder, had a hell of a time adjusting the guideplates. curiosity kicked in again and i checked my old comp ones the slots are .009 closer so i used them where couldnt get the rocker tips fully on both valves. i still have valve train noise, its not horrible but it is noticeable. contact patch on the tip is dead centered about an 1/8 inch wide. 1/2 turn for preload, not much clearance between the rockers and retainers. and also im not very impressed with hp gain over old setup. sure it makes more torque from 4500-6000 but not much. low end is about the same. cant get over 12 inches of vacuum either. ah whell time for a roller 331(looks in wallet and groans)

1320stang · Jun 30, 2006

My guide plates on my '65 289 race engine had been cut in half and tack welded back together after adjustment.

iskwezm · Jun 30, 2006

ashford said:
and also im not very impressed with hp gain over old setup. sure it makes more torque from 4500-6000 but not much. low end is about the same.

did the compression change with the new heads. I noticed a big drop when i put on my Edelbrocks(actually lost HP on the dyno too)but it felt stronger

180 Out · Jun 30, 2006

ashford said:
thinking i may have a little eccentric to timing cover issue but not sure. i cut open the old oil filter from before the swap and it looked similar. also im staring to think afr steel parts are junk.

I'm having a little trouble following along, but I like the idea that the non-ferrous filings in your oil may be from the front cover. That's because I would look at what you changed from the last time you had a quiet running 3000 mile engine, and one of those things is the camshaft. The new cam, or a new timing set, may have caused some fuel pump eccentric contact with your front cover. That would also explain the noise that you thought was coming from the #1 valves.

Where I'm confused is, did the swap to the Comp rockers eliminate the noise that gave birth to this thread in the first place? Also, are you saying you had the same amount of filings in your oil before the head and cam swap as you do now? Are you still thinking the engine might be trashed, or did the rocker swap fix it?

Edbert · Jun 30, 2006

What about the cam/distro gear? Is bronze ferrous?

ashford · Jul 1, 2006

180 Out said:
Where I'm confused is, did the swap to the Comp rockers eliminate the noise that gave birth to this thread in the first place? Also, are you saying you had the same amount of filings in your oil before the head and cam swap as you do now? Are you still thinking the engine might be trashed, or did the rocker swap fix it?

the noise4 that started this thread is was what sounded like a main knock(deceleration at low rpms, a slow hollow thud). that went away after awhile, but im still concerned what it was. all the complaining about the afr guide plates and rocker studs was just that, complaining(having brand new bent rocker studs in $1300 heads with no packaging damage sorta pisses me off). a few rocker nuts backed off on me, seems i wore em out with all the adjusting i did. i still have a very slight lifter noise when hot, but still quieter than a lot of the dodge 318's and 3.9l's ive heard.

but anyway im thinking 1.7 rockers would help with guideplate alignment since the pushrods are close at the top of the drilled hole in the head. 1.7's should bring them down closer to the center so i can adjust the plates to get the tips centered on the valve.( a few pushrods hit the head when rockers were properly aligned).

think i just trashed my 289

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