thoughts on fat man mcphereson strut suspension compared to MII?

LUCAFU1 · Apr 21, 2006

well all i want to see id this. someone let me know what their pushrod makes per cubic inch compared to my mod motor?

lets see, im making 2.27 HP per cubic inch AT THE WHEELS. my car is streetable and passes emsissions. Damn mod motors do suck

oh yeah an after market block for a pushrod is very expensive, $2000 and it still needs almost half of that to machine, so whover said they werent expensive must be rich. Pushrods are great, but mod motors are better

1320stang · Apr 21, 2006

WABBIT SEASON!!!.......DUCK SEASON!!.........WABBIT SEASON!!!.........DUCK SEASON!!!

Who cares? Ford's rock and everything else doesn't!!!

LUCAFU1 · Apr 21, 2006

1320stang said:
WABBIT SEASON!!!.......DUCK SEASON!!.........WABBIT SEASON!!!.........DUCK SEASON!!!

Who cares? Ford's rock and everything else doesn't!!!

best post yet

mtbdoc · Apr 21, 2006

Lord help me, but I don't get all of this idiotic "brand loyalty" crap. First Mustang in the family was on my birthday in the fall of '65 when my dad took delivery on a '66. Learned to drive in that car a few years later. Bought my '66 'vert in '79. Bought a GT by ordering from the dealer in Dec '86...before they even hit the dealers and SAVED the Mustang from FWD death. Kept driving that and bought a '91 SHO Taurus. Was ready to buy a 2005 GT one year ago but they were loony on the prices...and I drove the goat. The LS2 is amazing. Delivering ~350rhwp in a package smaller and lighter than the current Mustang motor! With boost it safely makes 500-550rwhp.

Come on, guys. The mod is a pig. I pondered it for my '66 project. Started a thread around here about doing a built 460 that, with aluminum heads and proper parts, is about the same as a mod motor in size/weight. Ended up deciding to do a 408W w/ a Procharger D2 blower for ~800 hp. Got BLASTED when I wondered about an aluminum LSx engine.

That is the best pushrod engine around. Don't give me brand loyalty crap. I doubt I'll by another GM product before the end of the world, but this Aussie-built car is awesome. The Z06 is awesome.....okay....I'm running out of GM cars to proclaim.....about everything else sucks...along with a LOT of Ford products.

What is it that feeds this sort of brand-loyalty idiocy? "best post yet"...come on....

Find the best product. Buy it. Drive the wheels off of it. Repeat.

OH YEAH: Fatmans...

...looked at it...cannot for a moment understand this love for Mac struts....the MII works well, and the stock does too IF you do the right things. Even SN65 is now wanting to do struts for his latest project...and he lost me right there. Can you say camber curves?

If you truly want to learn about suspension dynamics and characteristics, I suggest that you go over to corner-carvers.com and learn.

LUCAFU1 · Apr 21, 2006

you think a GTO is awesome? LOL that pig is heaver then the damn mustang. it looks like a cavalier and its not gonna be made anymore. yeah they say its just getting a new platform but ill believe it when i see it. but yeah the new zo6 is pretty damn bad. if you cant understand the concept of brand loyalty then you must not have a favorite team or something like that. maybe you enjoy jumping on every band wagon. thats fine too, but why does it bother you if someone loves fords? i will never buy a camaro, fireturd/GTP(never x's 10) or a vette. thats just me.

Hack · Apr 21, 2006

65ShelbyClone said:
I wasn't going to jump in beause this thread was originally about front suspension, not everyone's opinion on modular vs. pushrod. However.....in befo da lock!

1.) That is purely dependent on port design. An OHC engine can take advantage of the cam placement and use 4 valves per cylinder, that is all. A 2v 4.6 head(even PI) is not that impressive, but a 4v is because it has more valves and ports big enough to use them. A D-port 2.3L turbo head(OHC, 2v) flows about what an E7 does, for example.

2.) More parts, mostly in the valvetrain and heads.

For those that say more displacement=worse economy, just remember that power=fuel.

Really good post. I like it.

Power = fuel, but a smaller displacement engine gives more flexibility. If you keep it below 3,000 rpm - outstanding mileage. If you spin it up to 8,000 rpm, outstanding power. Similar to the benefits of a turbo. You can't take a huge engine and idle it at 200 rpm, though.

mtbdoc · Apr 21, 2006

LUCAFU1 said:
you think a GTO is awesome? LOL that pig is heaver then the damn mustang. it looks like a cavalier and its not gonna be made anymore. yeah they say its just getting a new platform but ill believe it when i see it. but yeah the new zo6 is pretty damn bad. if you cant understand the concept of brand loyalty then you must not have a favorite team or something like that. maybe you enjoy jumping on every band wagon. thats fine too, but why does it bother you if someone loves fords? i will never buy a camaro, fireturd/GTP(never x's 10) or a vette. thats just me.

And you've driven how many GTO's? With what mods? Or should I ask how many have dusted you out on the road?

"Jumping on every band wagon"??? Oh...I get it...you are the guy car & drivel was writing for when they first picked the '05 Mustang as a "10 best", then had to give the Mustang 3 more points on the "gotta have it" factor [go and read the test if you don't believe it] so it beat the GTO by ONE point. Yep...gotta have it. 100 more hp w/ a lower weight engine...and the new mustangs are too heavy as well. If Holden cut corners, sticking a solid axle would weigh 100# less than the IRS. The seats are very heavy...and NOTHING that has ever come in the Mustang can compare.

A favorite team? Gee...loyalty in rooting for sports vs making a RATIONAL decision about a better vehicle...hmmm...yeah, loyalty. Personally I think it is real nice that in the last few years both 'Sox' teams got to the top of the heap in baseball. Bandwagon...

go for it fanboi! Me, I take horsepower in a lot of different forms...when I bought my wife the WRX in 2001 you probably hadn't even heard of one yet!

65ShelbyClone · Apr 21, 2006

Hack said:
Really good post. I like it.

Power = fuel, but a smaller displacement engine gives more flexibility. If you keep it below 3,000 rpm - outstanding mileage. If you spin it up to 8,000 rpm, outstanding power. Similar to the benefits of a turbo. You can't take a huge engine and idle it at 200 rpm, though.

Glad you liked it, Hack. However, I tend to think that there is no free lunch in engine design. In other words, you have to take power or torque from somewhere in order to put it someplace else in the powerband. On the other hand, if I drove my SVO the 130mi a day I have been at 55mph instead of 70(3000rpm), it might get close to 30mpg for all I know.

LUCAFU1 said:
lets see, im making 2.27 HP per cubic inch AT THE WHEELS. my car is streetable and passes emsissions. Damn mod motors do suck

You make it sound like you're doing that stock without a blower when in fact your blown '03 Cobra hardly made a factory 640rwhp. The only think keeping a 302 from doing the same thing equipped the same way is the block.

Whats a supercharged 4V service replacement crate engine cost anyway? Maybe enough to cover a Dart 302?

I'm not in this for a pissing contest. I know the limitations of Windsors, Clevelands, and 385s. I also know the disadvantages of modulars, as well as the merits of both. I just get irritated when someone says one or the other is undeniably better in every way for whatever reason. Actually, its not far from comparing a 302 to an LS1 and the pointless arguing as to why one is better.

LUCAFU1 · Apr 22, 2006

mtdoc that post makes me laugh. btw ive driven the GTO only once. I did like the interior, and my cobra has an IRS too.

65 shelby clone, you are right that both enfines have there advantages and dis advantages. i am builing a 331 just because of the easy factor and mostly room. I will be running a single turbo and dart block and in any car it gets pricey.

but my 03 cobra stock made 360's at the wheels, not bad for a 281. now im making close to 650 with the stock blower still, more boost and a small shot. there has been guys that made 1000 at the wheels on the stock longblock. pretty good i say. from ford a crate motor is $10k or $11k. i think there is a place in PHX that has a few left and is selling it for around $8k shipped (I cant remeber for sure). If i wasnt so set on a damn turbo i would be all over this. i made 450 at the wheels with less then a $1k in my heavy ass cobra (programmer, intake, catback, and pulley).

LUCAFU1 · Apr 22, 2006

to get back on track, i recomend the heidts kit. sweet price, fast shipping, lots of options. i only wished i upgraded to the c/o's but i did get the better brakes. if i dont like the rake ill cut coil or two.

1320stang · Apr 22, 2006

Yeah, I'm thinking if the GTO was so great, they wouldn't be dropping it. I would also tend to expect that the next version of any engine would tend to be better than the last version. I also like that the LS2 looks a lot more like a 351w (valve layout and firing order) than it does the classic SBC.

Anyway mtdoc, if you're going to constantly trash Ford and the Mustang, at least do it in talk as it really doesn't pertain to anything tech at all. It seems that every time you post, that's what your post turns into, I don't see what this has to do with Fatman v.s MII.

SN65 · Apr 22, 2006

mtbdoc said:
Snip..

OH YEAH: Fatmans...

...looked at it...cannot for a moment understand this love for Mac struts....the MII works well, and the stock does too IF you do the right things. Even SN65 is now wanting to do struts for his latest project...and he lost me right there. Can you say camber curves?

If you truly want to learn about suspension dynamics and characteristics, I suggest that you go over to corner-carvers.com and learn.

Hi MT,

Yes, on paper, a twin "A" arm setup is going to generate a better camber curve than a strut setup.

But....

An unyielding loyalty to one aspect of a cars suspension is dangerous. You really have to look at the entire package.

For me, it all starts with the chassis. Chassis stability is king. There is nothing you can do to improve a cars handling more than improving chassis stability.

Period.

While a strut system does not have the same camber curve as the double "A" arm, its geometry still produces a car with near neutral steering characteristics. As others have already stated, in an early Mustang chassis, changing to a double "A" arm suspension places a great deal of stress on the frame rails. Even though the kits reinforce the rails themselves, they do nothing for the chassis at the rail/floor attachment points, which is another weak spot in an early mustang chassis.

So, with the typical aftermarket MII setup, under torsional and impact load, the drivers side frame rail and the passenger side frame rail will "pivot" around the frame rail to floor mounting points. When this happens, all the advantages of the double "A" arm setup go right out the window.

In a strut system, all loads are distributed through the frame rails, shock towers, cowl and firewall areas. All of these things add up to a much more stable chassis

So, which is better? A double "A" arm setup on a flimsy chassis, or a strut setup on a rigid chassis.

mtbdoc · Apr 24, 2006

The chassis rigidity issue is absolutely imperative. We are adding a lot of tubing to the front of my 'vert: dash bar which will also connect through the firewall to the frame rails [coming from above...don't actually know the "official" name] and loop across the front. I'm already tied across the back with the new construction.

Effective vs optimal...there IS a lot to be examined. BMW makes struts work well. Excellent engineering and execution.

Okay...I'll keep going on the 550 for a bit! I know...wrong thread.

And I won't even bring up the GTO!

Oops...I did.

SN65 · Apr 24, 2006

Hi MT,

On your vert, the biggest issue you will have to resolve is going to be the structure between the front and rear torque boxes.

I am afraid, unless you are going to perform some major surgury, all you can do is add some sub frame connectors. Structural issues are always easier to solve on coupes and fastbacks.

Good luck on your project.

mtbdoc · Apr 24, 2006

SN65 said:
Hi MT,

On your vert, the biggest issue you will have to resolve is going to be the structure between the front and rear torque boxes.

I am afraid, unless you are going to perform some major surgury, all you can do is add some sub frame connectors. Structural issues are always easier to solve on coupes and fastbacks.

Good luck on your project.

Plenty of surgery has been done thus far...

That is some serious rectangular steel tubing. The forward most piece has the roll bars mounted to it, and then there are a pair of forward tubes going into the convertible "underseat" panels. Also, there will be "low" door bars going forward from the outside of that rear bar, which will then tie into the dash bar and the loops going through the firewall and then down to the frame rails. Also a loop around the top of the radiator.

My engine builder is guaranteeing 750+ [flywheel] hp from the blown 408W he is building. I trust him...Just call it the pretzel car if the bracing isn't enough.

Here is the car with wheels under it

12" of rear tire [haven't got the new springs or other stuff worked out]:

I suppose I should have thrown in a pic or two of the Rod & Motorsports MII front end! BTW, the front tires have plenty of room for decent tires w/ the MII kit.

DukeGnarley · Apr 25, 2006

out of curiosity, what made you decide to install a MII? the 408 would have fit between the towers without too much trouble.

SN65 · Apr 25, 2006

Hey Doc,

You photos arn't showing up. Do you have a website or a project page I could go look at???

Edbert · Apr 25, 2006

Nice car MTB, I'd love to see more of the chassis stuff myself.

mtbdoc · Apr 28, 2006

Just saw the posts. No website...and I really haven't even organized the few pictures I have.

BTW, they should be showing up if you're logged in.

The MII was a decision made 2.5 yrs ago. Wanted disc brakes, R&P steering, knew there were issues with the front end. Wasn't sure what direction I'd go for an engine. Knew it wasn't going to be a road racer, and that it would provide a much cleaner engine compartment.

If/when I get the 2+2 moving forward, I'll revist different issues. Looking at SN65's latest fantasy/dream/psychosis as a possibility. Then again, I'm also working w/ an Aussie firm to try their twin turbo setup on the GTO, so that's going to tie up resources as well.

And we have the Hot Rod Power Tour coming up in a few weeks!!! woo-hoo!

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