Timing pointer & Damper marks NOT aligned

[blandq]

Hoping someone can point me to the right directions.

'68 289, looks bone stock down to the 2100 2V autolite. No rebuild history whatsoever on the motor.

We went to review dwell, timing, plugs and such on Saturday, set the RPM @ ~7-800 to start with, attached the timing light and....it reads like we are about 30 degress retarded (ATC mark shows well right of the pointer. Clearly rotating the distributor counter clockwise further retards the engine.

THE QUESTION: Looking at the Ford book for the'68 coupe and 2V 289, it all looks as it should. The damper marks are text book. I looked a my 64.5 289 and indeed #1 (dist cap) on both distributors are roughly in the same position. I run 13 degrees initial on mine, the stock '68 wants 6 BTDC. Audibly @ idle I have enough sweep, I can tell there is too much advance or too much much retard and have it where (garage-no load) ot behaves well.

WHY aren't these marks lines up?. Distributor is not 180 out....or the advance would be pointing aft and #1 would not be aligned....

 

[blandq]

I've been thinking, dnagerous I know, of ways to get the timing marks that far off.

- Jumped timing or improper install on the cam......But it seems to me that with respect to the piston, i.e. the crank, that the marks should still be aligned when the distributor firs at 6 BTDC. It would be the valve timing that was incorrect, opening a bit early or a bit late.

With the crank key'd to the damper...I don't see how the two could ever be off.
Clearly an old school watch the valves 'feel' the piston @ TDC and look see on the damper is in order.

So.....Somehow, the distributor has got to be off....But I believe it's either on or 180 out...with #1 on the cap lining up, that seems an impossibility.

 

[rbohm]

its possible that the outer ring of the damper has slipped causing you issues.

 

[blandq]

Unlike my '65, the damper is all metal...we had to do some major rust removal and old paint to even see the lines. Currently the pointer is an inch plus to the left of the 'ATC' scibe on the damper...I'd estimate 30-40 degrees retarded with respect to where it should be.

Question...what would it look like if the cam had juped timing or been installed wrong. Going through the thought problem, It looks like spark timing would still be proper to the crank..valve timing would be off.

How to tell if the damper has rotated.

-Q

 

[blown65]

Either get a piston stop and find TDC on #1 or get it as close as possible with the plug out of the hole and see where it lines up with the balancer.

If that comes out looking right, I'd pull the front cover off and see how the cam timing is in case its off. Is your ignition timing staying pretty steady or does it jump all over the place?

 

[blandq]

Thanks for the reply!

It hunts a little...+/- a degree or two.

This evening I'll go old school on it. I believe there are two possible out comes:

1. TDC #1 physical and the damper marks align = Cam and crank geometery are
not as they should be.

2. TDC #1 physical and the damper marks are NOT aligned = Something is wrong
with damper and
crank alignment.

As a thought experiement, what would we see while timing the engine by ear @ idle if we shined a timing light on the damper with:

a. Cam jumped timing, minimally, say a single tooth.
I'm thinking this places valve timing retarded with respect to stock/crank

b. If the Cam was installed in the wrong position...if I recall there is an A, B, and C for three positions.

I was also wondering if the previous owner(s) and rebuilds may have utilized a different year crank/block witht the other parts being '68 and there was a change such that following a '68 stock procedure...would wind up incorrect.

 

[blown65]

I would ignore your thought on the cam/crank timing until you know where TDC is on that balancer. It may be all your problem.

Once you get that, I'd prob set it around 8-10 initial to start and go from there.

 

[brianj5600]

There are 3 different timing pointers and each one has a matching balancer. It is possible you have a 10 o'clock pointer and an 11 o'clock balancer or vice versa. 360* divided by 12 equals 30*. Being as old as the car is, it is likely it has been worrked on at some point and thing were not matched up. I made a piston stop to verify my balancer. Rotate in each direction until the piston touches the stop, mark the balancer at the timing pointer. TDC is exactly in between.

 

[blandq]

Appreciate much the info and time taken.

Remarking the damper, not an issue, easily done. But I must say, being and engineering-type by nature, I'm dying to know what the root cause of the issue is.....I hate it when "Connect "A" to "B" with screw "C".....and your "C" is a bolt....

As mentioned earlier, is it possible for the outer to skew that far and retain a functional damper? if so, it'll take a piston stop each and everytime to re-cal the damper.

 

[woodsnake]

I'd bet a dollar that you can't see the rubber between the halves on the dampner, but it's there.

Also, somebody could have messed with your wires on the dist. cap, causing you to be off as well....

 

[10secgoal]

Are you sure your on number 1 ? Done that before. 30 deg sounds about right if you clipped the wrong wire and it read funny.

 

[blandq]

I went again last ...all set to map it out and lo-and behold it look as it should....I moved some wires around, it took a while but I was able to get the issue to repeat. It seems the indictive pick-up on my timing light is more sensitive than I remembered. when I got it down beside the block and near the other wires the readings began to go snafu. I borrowed my friends light and could not make it happen.