harmonic balancer - mark at 40 deg btdc at TDC???

[tomc3]

Just bought a '94 cobra....harmonic balancer has been replaced recently by previous owner. I was trying to install a new distributor and following how-to:

1) I pulled #1 plug and cranked in a clockwise direction on the balancer bolt
2) when I felt compression in cyl 1, I watched the dist rotor and when the rotor was at #1 mark on dist, it was at 40 degrees on the balancer????

I repeated this several times - cranked the engine over twice with the breaker bar (by twice, I watched the dist rotor rotate 2x around....I think that's correct....) to again align to TDC and same result. I also checked it at 1x around (in case i was off.....) and it was also at 40 degrees. It is aligned at 40, though....so I *could* use 40 as my zero mark and I do have a degree timing light.

Anyone experience this before? My last car that used a distributor and needed to be timed was my '69 camaro z28 (bought in 70's and sold in 70's), so this is a learning experience for me......

I'm reasonably sure I'm doing things right, but could be noob mistake, or can the balancer be simply installed wrong and be off that much? My understanding is that at TDC on the harmonic balancer, the rotor should be pointing at #1 sparkplug rotor location, but mine is more like the following ( How To: Properly stab your distributor. - MustangForums.com - first pic that says "this is incorrect"). Right now, car runs fine, so looking for answers/suggestions before I delve into this further.

 

[JonezySN95]

Is the HB that is on there now the origional stock one? If so then there is a possability that it may have spun do to wear of the rubber bushing on it. Im kinda going through the same thing so I just ordered a new HB from late model restoration for just over $100 and its not the cheapest one on there either. My guess is that is spun and I would replace it before you change the dizzy just to be safe. Also you cant really install it wrong cause there is a notch in the HB like a dowl pin to line it up. Hope this helps and good luck

 

[toyman]

A spun HB would be my guess. I'm certain that when you pull the old one it will separate into two pieces.

 

[tomc3]

previous owner said he replaced....

I'll check the receipts he gave me, but if replaced, I guess it could still have spun.

Is there any way to install a harmonic balancer off mark? Is there more than one slot for the key? I.e. one for 5.0, one for 5.8 or something like that?

 

[JonezySN95]

I'll check the receipts he gave me, but if replaced, I guess it could still have spun.

Is there any way to install a harmonic balancer off mark? Is there more than one slot for the key? I.e. one for 5.0, one for 5.8 or something like that?

Umm not that I know of... I just had mine off and I only saw one alignment hole. Stock im almost certain it will only have one. Aftermarket I couldnt say since there are many different types/styles of HB's.

 

[toyman]

The rotor pointing at #1 should be at about 12:30 when viewing from the front of the engine. The piston will be at the top of the cylinder and the timing pointer will be at 0 on the HB. All these conditions need to be met. The HB can only fit one way.

 

[99FiveOh]

You're doing it all wrong I'm afraid. You should not be watching the dizzy, matter of fact it shouldn't even be in the motor until you've got everything else lined up.

You're right about the air coming out of the spark plug hole, but what you do after that is spin the balancer so that it is on "0" or some like to aim for the actual timing they're going for "10* or so". Also, make SURE you are looking at the pointer correctly, this is a very common mistake!

THEN you install your dizzy with the rotor facing #1 when it's all the way seated. You have to start with the rotor a little to the left of #1 so it will spin as it meshes and stop at 1. You can also turn the dizzy to adjust a little once it' seated.

Until the you've aquired TDC, the dizzy is not a point of reference.

 

[revhead347]

I wouldn't risk it, pull the balancer. The 0 mark should be aligned with the woodruff key notch on the balancer. If the balancer is spun, you should buy a gently used Pioneer unit off of a friendly stangnetter.

Kurt

 

[99FiveOh]

wouldn't risk what Kurt? If the balancer is new there's no problem with it. He's going about timing his car completely wrong. Until the crank is lined up properly, the dizzy cannot be used as a point of reference, period.

I can take my dizzy out, rotate the motor a few times and stab the dizzy and aim it at #1 and there's no telling where the balancer will be. Doesn't mean the balancer was bad, it just means that the motor wasn't in the correct position when I stabbed the dizzy, which is what the OP's problem is.

 

[tomc3]

curiouser and curiouser....

owner I bought it from said the dist is original, the balancer is not:

so - looking at this post, let me try to deconstruct this - I'm not averse to being wrong:

1) "You should not be watching the dizzy, matter of fact it shouldn't even be in the motor until you've got everything else lined up."

ans: in an engine that "seems" to be running O.K., if I statically align to #1 distributor ref, and ensure I'm on compression stroke (pull #1 plug and feel for air coming out by putting finger over plug hole, I should not be at 0 degrees on the harmonic balancer - correct? This presumes this is stock timing (seems to run fine on regular). I presume if I'm at stock timing, I *might* show 10 deg btdc on the balancer, not 40? In other words, something still is misaligned.....am I making sense?

2) You're right about the air coming out of the spark plug hole, but what you do after that is spin the balancer so that it is on "0" or some like to aim for the actual timing they're going for "10* or so". Also, make SURE you are looking at the pointer correctly, this is a very common mistake!

ans: so, i got the compression stroke right. On the pointer, I'm using the full width top of the pointer (think it says "timer" on that part? I got that right as well?) and, when I have the balancer at "0", the location of the rotor is about here:

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g303/AdderMk2/wrongtiming2.jpg

This may be O.K. for a distributor already installed and timed.....that's where I think I'm getting a bit confused and this has helped clarify what's going on.

3) THEN you install your dizzy with the rotor facing #1 when it's all the way seated. You have to start with the rotor a little to the left of #1 so it will spin as it meshes and stop at 1. You can also turn the dizzy to adjust a little once it' seated.

Until the you've acquired TDC, the dizzy is not a point of reference.

ans: I think I have this a little better......

so, at TDC (based on the harmonic balancer - we'll presume this is correct for the moment), the distributor *should* be off, but if I align the distributor to #1, what should I see on the harmonic balancer? Or do I not care?

Looks like I might have gotten 2 out of 10...got the compression stroke right, and I think I used the right part of the pointer!

 

[RIO5.0]

Very top of the timing tab is correct...

 

[99FiveOh]

Ok, you're going backwards on this. Forget the dizzy for the moment. Spin your motor with the dizzy OUT until you feel the woosh of air come out of the plug hole. Now, align your balancer to "zero" on the pointer. NOW, install your dizzy with it pointing at number one. At this point you'll be good to go. Start the motor and adjust timing as usual.

You're referencing your process on the dizzy rotor and cap, which is infinite as far as where it can be. It can't be used for any reference since it has no exact place it MUST be if that makes any sense.

 

[toyman]

Okay, but isn't that what I inferred when I said that all three conditions MUST be met. Timing at 0, #1 piston at the top on the compression stroke and the rotor pointing to #1 plug wire. But I read his problem as being that the piston is at TDC and the rotor is pointing at #1 BUT the HB timing pointer is at 40*. With the #1 piston at TDC the timing pointer cannot be at 40* unless the HB has spun. Am I reading this wrong?

 

[tomc3]

hmmm....

O.K. - will try this - I'm starting to get this - i was ASSuming the old distributor in there would show something different than I saw when cranking the engine by hand - something around 10-20 btdc on the balancer, vs 40

so - anyone recall where a properly timed disty was indexed (left of #1, but how far...) when the engine was at tdc? Am I close? I'll throw a timing light on the engine tomorrow and see what I get (after pulling the thingee on the fender)

 

[tomc3]

toyman...you may be reading this wrong..

And I think I was looking at this wrong:

1) I used the dist as reference, not the balancer
2) when the (currently installed and running) dist rotor was pointing to #1 - essentially straight back at 12 o'clock - the balancer was at 40 degrees - that's what was confusing to me - i had expected to see maybe 10-12 degrees off TDC when the dist was firing #1, but this is all static hand-turning of the engine
3) with the balancer at "tdc" (0 on the balancer and on the compression stroke), the rotor was at about 11 o'clock.....

Thinking about this in terms of degrees of rotation on the dist, it might have been between 10-20 degrees off noon to the left.

So, I still don't know if 'sumthin ain't raght', but I am learning a ton about this. Thanks to all for your insightful replies and help

 

[99FiveOh]

Now you're confusing me. You said in your first post that you attempted to install a new distributor and have had a problem since, correct? Is the engine running? If the engine is running and you don't have a MASSIVE vibration, time it with a timing light and go have a beer.

 

[HISSIN50]

Check your PM's.

 

[tomc3]

summit balancer + noob = fail!

O.K......spent some "quality time" with the new car....here's the real deal:

The summit balancer has 3 different timing marks on their balancer. I was looking at the marks on the FRONT (towards the front of the car), vs looking BEHIND those marks to the 2ND set of marks at the BACK of the balancer..............yeesh!

So - to recap - I'm a bonehead!

Once I figured out to use the back marks, it lined up perfectly (front mark showed 40). I used the ******* site to get the new distributor installed and aligned perfectly, then started the car and set timing at 10 deg with my sears timing light I bought back in the 70's (I have not used this since that time - score one for stuff that was built right back then!).

wow....that was more painful than I imagined, but if I had tried to do this without "teh innernetz", I'd be in a world of hurt! Thanks to all for the advice - chalk this up to NOOB-i-do!