Toploader bellhousing question/problem

[brother in law]

Am in the middle of a brother-in-law job that am hoping someone here will be informed enough to help me out of. My brother in law has a 69 with its original 302 and three speed. He's wanted to put in a toploader.

He found a toploader someplace and acquired a Hurst shifter to (hopefully) complete the parts needs. No such luck. Output shaft splines are different but finding a yoke proved to not be a problem. Problem is the bellhousing.

The bolt pattern on this new toploader I started to install for him is very narrow. It is 6 3/8" center to center between the lower pair of tranny mounting bolts and 5 3/8" between the upper pair.

Looked at some listings on eBay and didn't see anything that showed other than a "normal" looking bolt patter for the tranny to bellhousing bolts. Nothing this narrow.

Can anyone more experienced in FoMoCo and toploaders tell me what application used this narrow bolt pattern on the toploader and what bellhousings would mate to both the tranny and the back of the 69 302 block? If anyone actually has such a bellhousing don't hesitate to offer it up for sale either.

Thanks for any help or guidance that might be offered.

 

[dennis112]

Am in the middle of a brother-in-law job that am hoping someone here will be informed enough to help me out of. My brother in law has a 69 with it's original 302 and three speed. He's wanted to put in a toploader.

He found a toploader someplace and acquired a Hurst shifter to (hopefully) complete the parts needs. No such luck. Output shaft splines are different but finding a yoke proved to not be a problem. Problem is the bellhousing.

The bolt pattern on this new toploader I started to install for him is very narrow. It is 6 3/8" center to center between the lower pair of tanny mounting bolts and 5 3/8" between the upper pair.

Looked at some listings on eBay and didn't see anything that showed other than a "normal" looking bolt patter for the tranny to bellhousing bolts. Nothing this narrow.

Can anyone more experienced in FoMoCo and toploaders tell me what application used this narrow bolt pattern on the toploader and what bellhousings would mate to both the tranny and the back of the 69 302 block? If anyone actually has such a bellhousing don't hesitate to offer it up for sale either.

Thanks for any help or guidance that might be offered.

Sounds like you have a toploader from a 1964/early 1965. After that Ford went with the wider pattern that you found behind your 302.

Bad News--the bellhousing from an early engine is NOT going to fit your 302. What you will need to do is either swap the toploader you have for the correct one, have the guts of the transmission you have put into a proper case, or swap the bellhousing you have for a scattershield that has both patterns.

 

[ttoney]

Order up a Lakewood bell from Summit.

 

[brother in law]

Bad News--the bellhousing from an early engine is NOT going to fit your 302. What you will need to do is either swap the toploader you have for the correct one, have the guts of the transmission you have put into a proper case, or swap the bellhousing you have for a scattershield that has both patterns.

Won't fit; that's unfortunate!

A few more questions then. This tranny is in great shape. Since it is apparently for an 64 and early 65 only does it have any special significance or value? Could it be swapped for a later model piece straight across? Expect a little boot? Or have to pay some difference?

If this transmission is retained does anyone know for sure that the Lakewood (15200) that mates to the block does in fact accept this narrow bolt pattern transmission? The times I've messed with those before they seemed to be a royal pain to get dialed in to center too. How are they on the 302?

Has anyone got an appropriate experience with the stock bellhousing to know if there's enough meat to drill and heli-coil to make it work with this earlier model transmission? The splines on the input shaft are the same and the O.D. on the nose for the pilot bushing is the same so if the bolt pattern could be drilled for this would seem to be a solution as well. Don't know about the input shaft housing's OD though. Have to check and see if they're same too I guess?

The Lakewood housings new can be a bit pricey too if I remember right. Does anyone know if any later toploader case would interchange and accept all the internals? Or are there some specific applications I should watch for. Just trying to figure out the easiest/cheapest way to get the car back out of my garage

Again, thanks to anyone for any guidance. It's appreciated.

 

[dennis112]

Yours is only desireable to someone who needs one. I would say that a straight up trade could be possible, but fewer people need the narrow pattern.

Your guts will fit into any of the later 65-73 toploader 4 speed cases with no issues--none at all. Avoid the more modern OD units though because they have some differences.

The lakewood 15200 has dual patterns. They can be gotten cheaper off of ebay--around $150 with the block plate. Not sure if the inner pattern is for the small mount toploader or not, but it sure looks like it--I am sure it wouldn't be hard to modify it if the pattern is different. Poke around the Lakewood site (or call them.) Here is what the 15200 looks like:

http://store.summitracing.com/largeimage.asp?part=LAK-15200

 

[brother in law]

Your guts will fit into any of the later 65-73 toploader 4 speed cases with no issues--none at all. Avoid the more modern OD units though because they have some differences.

The lakewood 15200 has dual patterns. They can be gotten cheaper off of ebay--around $150 with the block plate. Not sure if the inner pattern is for the small mount toploader or not, but it sure looks like it--I am sure it wouldn't be hard to modify it if the pattern is different. Poke around the Lakewood site (or call them.) Here is what the 15200 looks like:

http://store.summitracing.com/largeimage.asp?part=LAK-15200

Got an email in to Lakewood's tech support asking if that inner part will be correct. Thanks for the heads up on the interchangeability of the cases. That'll be another option to pursue; especially since the toploaders are so easy to tear apart. Does anyone know if the Lakewood housing accepts the stock fork and boot? Or have to buy more parts to complete the job?

Thanks again

 

[dennis112]

Got an email in to Lakewood's tech support asking if that inner part will be correct. Thanks for the heads up on the interchangeability of the cases. That'll be another option to pursue; especially since the toploaders are so easy to tear apart. Does anyone know if the Lakewood housing accepts the stock fork and boot? Or have to buy more parts to complete the job?

Thanks again

Mine used the stock fork, but I was replacing an 11" setup. You would probably have to find one because of how big the Lakewood is (just a guess.) The lakewood accepts the smaller flywheel and clutch. It has 2 sets of bolt holes for the starter which I was able to reuse.

I used the pivot from my old bellhousing (I bought a NOS lakewood that had never been used on ebay.) The pivot can be purchased from the aftermarket (and perhaps Ford??), but I believe they were a little salty ($30 or so.) I ground off the old rivets, removed the pivot, and bolted it to the existing holes in the Lakewood.

As far as boots, they only make them for the GM crowd. I cut up my old boot a little and used it. Not as tight, but better than nothing.

Something else to think about. A toploader case can oftem be found on ebay for about $100-125 or so delivered. If you know of someone who can disassemble/reassemble a tranny, you might save a few bucks by going that route. I currently have a case on ebay, although it is a rare 428CJ/Boss item that I expect to go for a few more dollars.

 

[1966conv]

There's also another option. There are some dual bolt pattern bellhousing out there that fit both. I might have one, but it's not in the greatest of shapes. I'll have to check.

 

[65ShelbyClone]

My McLeod scattershield has both bolt patterns too. Fewer people seem to have problems aligning them vs. the Lakewoods. I dialed mine, but it didn't need adjustment. I used a stock clutch fork with it.

Like was mentioned already, you can usually find bare Toploader cases for $100-200. Go to http://www.4speedtoploaders.com/ and read up in the I.D. Charts. Its funny, you can use a wide pattern case on a narrow bellhousing, but not the other way around.

Sucks, I sold a stock '65 wide pattern bellhousing on ebay just a few weeks ago.