torque converter gurus...help me out, quickly!!!

stonegod85 · Dec 30, 2005

called up monster motorsports out of florida about there heavy duty street/strip AODE (which is excellent!!!) when i was about to order it i wanted to upgrade the stall to 3200 and the dude was like WHOA!! he sent me to their tech department and the guy was like there is no way in hell you want that high of a stall with factory cams in a 4.6 mustang! (at this point i was extremely confused) he went on to tell me that if i were to get it then i would be rolling backwards at stop lights until the engine revved to about 2800, unless i held my foot on the brake. he went on to say that i would just be killing my engine revving it that hard as a daily driver and that i would actually be hurting my performance rather than enhancing it. he told me with a 260HP stock 4.6 i wouldn't want to go above 2000. the converter they had was a 12", i said i wanted a 9.5 kinda like the PI...and he said then it wouldn't be a lockup style anymore as there wouldn't be enough room for it in the converter. so now i'm like what is going on here! i told him that several buddies of mine have between 3000 and 3500 stall converters in there stock stangs and they've had no problems and he said well then they don't really have a true 3000-3500 stall in there. PLEASE HELP ME...NOW I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO!!!!

TGJ · Dec 30, 2005

Buy your TC from someone who knows what they are talking about. Those guys sound like ass clowns.

I would contact Chris @ http://www.circledspecialties.com/ and talk to them.

03ghoststang · Dec 30, 2005

try looking up for PI triple plate convertor's

reddrgn01gt · Dec 30, 2005

Read this for a little more info on converters.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/85019/

98blackmagic · Dec 30, 2005

I picked my converter by talking to the guys at the track that had auto's with converters in their cars. After a couple visits I had a good Idea of what I needed and called Percision Industries and placed my order (of course I ok it with their tech dept) The best way to pick parts, especially something as important as a stall is to talk to the guys that have them now. Mine is a 2800 stall, works great now and will be even better when my new motor (parts in my sig) is dropped in by the next few weeks.

Mike97gt · Dec 31, 2005

TGJ said:
Buy your TC from someone who knows what they are talking about. Those guys sound like ass clowns.

I would contact Chris @ http://www.circledspecialties.com/ and talk to them.

i agree... the guy you talked too is a CLOWN... this was a guy from the tech dept at a tranny shop???

chinostang · Dec 31, 2005

Every shop will say that, Been there with three different friends that had their put in at three different shops. The reaction from the shops was all the same. Roll backwards, thats funny. Correct me if im wrong but, i remeber the higher stall converter being smaller than the stock one.

stonegod85 · Dec 31, 2005

yeah...the guy kept argueing with me and then i proceeded to school him in what he "does for a living" and then he said "well i've never heard of that before". man, if you are going to get into that kind of business you'd better know your competition and your "****"! long story short...HELL NO i'm not buyin a tranny from those fools..just gonna rebuild mine and get an edge racing converter.

TGJ · Dec 31, 2005

stonegod85 said:
just gonna rebuild mine and get an edge racing converter.

You might want to do some research into TC's before you buy that Edge TC!

Dark Knight GT · Dec 31, 2005

TGJ said:
You might want to do some research into TC's before you buy that Edge TC!

Here we go again........

:: buckles seat belt for the torque converter debate ride ::

I'm only going to point out one thing. While many people bash the Edge Racing torque converters, it is interesting to note that none of the people who bash them own one, or as far as I know, have ever owned one. It's also interesting to note that when I do a search for Edge converters, I can't find a single person who has a complaint about their Edge converter unit.

I understand that the Edge Racing torque converters for the 4r70w uses a "smaller than stock lock up clutch piston", however, that same pistons in found in many other converter assemblies without problem. Remember, the size doesn't always matter, but it is the efficiency rating that matters. If size mattered, then people would be running 16in torque converters with 7 friction plates, yet they don't.

TGJ · Dec 31, 2005

Dark Knight GT said:
Here we go again........

:: buckles seat belt for the torque converter debate ride ::

I'm only going to point out one thing. While many people bash the Edge Racing torque converters, it is interesting to note that none of the people who bash them own one, or as far as I know, have ever owned one. It's also interesting to note that when I do a search for Edge converters, I can't find a single person who has a complaint about their Edge converter unit.

I understand that the Edge Racing torque converters for the 4r70w uses a "smaller than stock lock up clutch piston", however, that same pistons in found in many other converter assemblies without problem. Remember, the size doesn't always matter, but it is the efficiency rating that matters. If size mattered, then people would be running 16in torque converters with 7 friction plates, yet they don't.

All I said was do some research and you harp on it. I really don't care if people buy that junk from Edge anymore. I have already shown a failed edge unit on this site and I am not searching for it. It is their money and their cars and doing some research now, may save them more $$$ down the line. Debate and defend Edge all you want, I am done with this thread.

streetstang03 · Dec 31, 2005

i've heard more complaints about PI converters than Edge converters.

98blackmagic · Dec 31, 2005

I have never had any problems with mine.........or know anybody that has had any issues with theirs.

san~man · Dec 31, 2005

Yup, me too.

PI locking 2800 stall in mine, been in there for over 3 years with no problems.

2000 stall max...lol.

Dark Knight GT · Dec 31, 2005

TGJ said:
All I said was do some research and you harp on it. I really don't care if people buy that junk from Edge anymore. I have already shown a failed edge unit on this site and I am not searching for it. It is their money and their cars and doing some research now, may save them more $$$ down the line. Debate and defend Edge all you want, I am done with this thread.

First of all, the Edge unit you displayed was out of a transmission that failed. That doesn't imply the Edge unit caused the failure. In fact, in the pictures I seen, the edge converter displayed was an entry level Edge Racing converter without any problems. Even the Kevlar clutch material still said "Kevlar" on it, so clearly it wasn't worn smooth. The guys transmission failed, he opened the converter, which is standard operation, and the converter from those pictures appeared to be fine. It doesn't prove anything to me, other than someone is blaming Edge for a problem their untit didn't cause.

So yeah, he should do his reasearch, and go by the facts........like the one's I just mentioned.

Gearbanger 101 · Dec 31, 2005

stonegod85 said:
.just gonna rebuild mine and get an edge racing converter.

Edge converters are junk, end of story!....as are TCI converters! PI makes a good converter, but only their triple disk designs are really worth mentioning and you're gonna start spending some big money if that's the case.

Dark Knight GT said:
Here we go again........

:: buckles seat belt for the torque converter debate ride ::

I'm only going to point out one thing. While many people bash the Edge Racing torque converters, it is interesting to note that none of the people who bash them own one, or as far as I know, have ever owned one.

Perhaps the reason for this is that these people did the converter research necessary and know better that to bother with them.

Dark Knight GT said:
I understand that the Edge Racing torque converters for the 4r70w uses a "smaller than stock lock up clutch piston", however, that same pistons in found in many other converter assemblies without problem. Remember, the size doesn't always matter, but it is the efficiency rating that matters. If size mattered, then people would be running 16in torque converters with 7 friction plates, yet they don't.

It's not only the size of the clutch they use, that makes them an inferior converter. They also cut a lot of other corners like using hollow rivets to fasten the turbine together, as well as drastically bending the pump fins and cutting the stator in order to control stall speed. Yeah, it may get the job done as far as increasing stall speed is concerned, but the byproduct of this is superheating the transmission fluid which makes the converter work much less efficiently than it was designed to.

Click on the link I posted at the bottom of this thread and it will explain to you a lot of the so called “tricks of the trade” that some of these companies like Edge do and you’ll second guess them as well.

TGJ said:
Buy your TC from someone who knows what they are talking about. Those guys sound like ass clowns.

I would contact Chris @ http://www.circledspecialties.com/ and talk to them.

Agree. I just got mine in from them yesterday, as a matter of fact. Chris is a super nice guy to deal with and the price wasn't too bad either. I also happen to know he does a lot of consulting with "Dirty Dog" one of the well respected converter guru's over at TCCOA, who also really knows his stuff.

Mine is based off of an 11 1/4” modified Marauder T/C, which is already furnace brazed, then treated to a steel bearing conversion, solid rivets, Kevlar disk clutch, billet front cover, etc, etc…..and it retains full lock up capability! Everything the stock converter should have been. The stall speed he quoted me for this converter was in the 2,800-3,000rpm range, but since I'm running a Roots blower, I didn't feel as though any higher stall would be necessary. I’m sure he could have increased the stall speed further if I wanted him to. If you decide to go with him, tell him that you were refered to by "Brian from Canada". He'll know who you're talking about and may cut you a bit of a break on the price.

Here’s a good link posted by “Dirty Dog” from TCCOA which contains a lot of converter info that some of you may find interesting.

http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=47149&highlight=inside+a+marauder+torque+converter

Dark Knight GT · Dec 31, 2005

Gearbanger 101 said:
Edge converters are junk, end of story!....as are TCI converters! PI makes a good converter, but only their triple disk designs are really worth mentioning and you're gonna start spending some big money if that's the case.

Do you have any personal experience with an Edge Racing torque converter, or a TCI converter for that matter ? BTW, I have a Precision Industries 3000 stall converter in my car. It is the single disk setup, and for about a year, it was operating just fine. Only it slips at WOT now, probably due to the fact that the clutch material they use is crap.

Gearbanger101 said:
Mine is based off of an 11 ¾” modified Marauder T/C, which is already furnace brazed, then treated to a steel bearing conversion, solid rivets, Kevlar disk clutch, billet front cover, etc, etc…..and it retains full lock up capability! Everything the stock converter should have been. The stall speed he quoted me for this converter was in the 2,800-3,000rpm range, but since I'm running a Roots blower, I didn't feel as though any higher stall would be necessary.

An 11 3/4" converter ? The stock converter in the late model 4r70w equipped Mustangs is only 11in. in diameter stock. Why the hell would you want a larger unit that is undoubtantley going to be heavier ? Kevlar disk clutch ? Kevlar might be super-lightweight, but it's also well-known for wearing smooth over time, and this eventually leads to slippage. Edge Racing actually puts a High carbon friction lining in theirs, which seems to be more expensive than building the old standard mutli-disk kevlar clutch setup.

Gearbanger 101 · Dec 31, 2005

Dark Knight GT said:
Do you have any personal experience with an Edge Racing torque converter, or a TCI converter for that matter ?

Read my edit above!

Dark Knight GT said:
BTW, I have a Precision Industries 3000 stall converter in my car. It is the single disk setup, and for about a year, it was operating just fine. Only it slips at WOT now, probably due to the fact that the clutch material they use is crap.

As I stated....only their triple disk converters are really worth talking about. And then you're getting into the $900-$1,000 range.

Dark Knight GT said:
An 11 3/4" converter ? The stock converter in the late model 4r70w equipped Mustangs is only 11in. in diameter stock.

Actually, the 4R70W is closer to 13" stock. Why do I know this, because I measured it right before inquiring to have the new one built.

Dark Knight GT said:
Kevlar disk clutch ? Kevlar might be super-lightweight, but it's also well-known for wearing smooth over time, and this eventually leads to slippage. Edge Racing actually puts a High carbon friction lining in theirs, which seems to be more expensive than building the old standard mutli-disk kevlar clutch setup.

The reason the converter will slip has next to nothing to do with the material in which the clutch is constructed from. The Kevlar lined disk is stronger, that’s just a given, but it's because of the design of the factory lock up clutch that throws a wrench into things. It's got many grooves cut into it, in order to promote "smooth" lock up, but since in the process, it costs valuable surface area, it doesn't do much to promote efficiency.

The stock liner the factory 4R70W converter came with provided only 19-square inches of coverage over the unit. The new Kevlar replacement along with the other modifications provided nearly 31-square inches of coverage. Now, you tell me which one is going to be more prone to slipping?

Mike97gt · Dec 31, 2005

streetstang03 said:
i've heard more complaints about PI converters than Edge converters.

i have never used edge converters and i don't know anybody with one.. BUT i do know many with PI converters and all that have one love it.. i recomend PI converters for fords and for chevys..

Dark Knight GT · Dec 31, 2005

Gearbanger 101 said:
Actually, the 4R70W is closer to 13" stock. Why do I know this, because I measured it right before inquiring to have the new one built.

I never measured my stock unit, so I don't know if this is true or not. All I know is the information I've seen posted informed me the stock unit was approx. 11in. Not saying it might not be larger, cause as I said, I never measured the stock unit.

Gearbanger101 said:
The reason the converter will slip has next to nothing to do with the material in which the clutch is constructed from. The Kevlar lined disk is stronger, that’s just a given, but it's because of the design of the factory lock up clutch that throws a wrench into things.

Kevlar will wear over time, and as a result becomes smooth, and then becomes prone to slippage. All the torque converter gurus agree with this. This is why all other companies are getting on the "high carbon friction lining" wagon, as it is far more durable, and will last longer than kevlar.

Gearbanger101 said:
It's got many grooves cut into it, in order to promote "smooth" lock up, but since in the process, it costs valuable surface area, it doesn't do much to promote efficiency.

I never claimed the stock unit did.

Gearbanger101 said:
The stock liner the factory 4R70W converter came with provided only 19-square inches of coverage over the unit.

This has to do with the fact that the stock converter lining from Ford is basically crap. That, and it's not a wide band material they put into it.

Gearbanger101 said:
The new Kevlar replacement along with the other modifications provided nearly 31-square inches of coverage. Now, you tell me which one is going to be more prone to slipping?

Probably the Kevlar replacement........until the Kevlar wears smooth, then it will slip like no tomorrow.

BTW, do you even drive a Mustang ?

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