Trick Flow Top End Kit.......which emissions legal Cam???

solid plan, its what im doing, getting a TF kit, when bottom end goes then ill get a shortblock
dunno about emissions im not worried about that, i would call trickflow support and ask them.
if you get a different cam than the kit then you might need different pushrods too

Very good question?. I have the street heat upr/lwr, not installed yet, cause I'm thinking about getting some heads to go with. I plan on using the E303 by ford, cause it's supposed to be smog legal. Also, the twisted wedge heads are smog legal in all 50 states!!! if you can't get a definitive answer from Trick Flow, go to summit and get that Ford Racing E303. I believe Crane has some smog legal cams as well. Let me know what you decide to do, cause I'm in San Diego CA and Smog is a big issue here. In fact, if they look under your car, and the cats are gone, so is your car.... to the Impound yard!!!!

Dante'

Ill be spending right around 3100$ doing the trickflow upgrading, this includes fuel pump (good deal from friend 80$), injectors (90$ used), and 75mm throttlebody (216$ bbk)

I somehow think you guys are looking for the correct hardware to be the
solution of putting out clean emissions. I would say to you , based upon
my findings, software can be another solution to the problem

We need different hardware (speed parts) to make more hp

We then have an issue that our hardware is no longer compatible
with our software (pcm)

If you optimize your pcm to match all your new speed parts, you most
likely are gonna pass emissions if talking about a reasonable street
or light strip combo

btw ... I'm talking about clean burning
and
Not any kind of visual thing here
which in some states ... they'll fail a car with speed parts

anyway ...........

I got a low lsa cam with a good bit of duration and an idle that is
pretty rough.
It has all the stuff you see peeps say all the time
won't work our pcm's and will fail emissions

Here is all I can say about what I've found with my little GT

I got drivability just like a stocker with exception of cam lope with
the help of self tuning

I've passed strict Texas state annual emissions roller dyno kind of testing
now for several years with the help of self tuning to ensure I have optimum
spark and fuel for a clean burn

I just wanted to share ... there are other methods out there

Grady

with the street heat and a tune you should pass emissions. if you're that worried about emissions stay away from the track heat kit.

Cwalk said:

with the street heat and a tune you should pass emissions. if you're that worried about emissions stay away from the track heat kit.

Click to expand...

I'm not disagreeing with you
but
I would like you to elaborate on your info here if you would be so kind

Grady

Car Nut said:

What I gather from that statement is that the parts may be too big, but I'd like to know exactly too.

Example: I could get CARB legal AFR 185s and CARB legal Edel RPM II and a safe Comp Cam, but that would be too big for a stock bottom end. A 347 would like it, but not my mundane 302.

Click to expand...

Your sitting on the question I have been going over the past couple of months. I'm not ready to drop $6-7K on a 347 longblock but I do want some more power now. I'd love to do the AFR185's and the Edel RPM II or Holley Systemax but as you said it's not so compatible with the stock bottom end (Having to flycut the pistons and what not). That was exactly my original plan but because of the the issues you bring up I am also starting to lean towards the Trickflow kit. It's seems like it's much easier to bolt right up and go and will also be pretty good to swap over later.

I'm going to be listening by your side to hear about peoples input on this subject. This is a good thread for those of us that have to meet emissions.

With 1.6 ratio rockers, try the Crane 2030. With 1.7 ratio, go with Crane 2031. I do believe Crane makes the FRPP cams and you can get the Cranes for less.

Car Nut said:

I sent an email to Trick Flow, so I'll post the reply when it comes.

I will easily consider an E303, something from CompCams, Crane, etc. What I was hoping is that I could use the Trick Flow kit and just swap in a milder emissions cam. I guess I could leave the stock cam in place, but that seems like I'll leave too much power on the table (even though max power is not the goal here).

The kit has all the right parts and whatnot. I could easily go with AFR 165s, and Edel Performer intake, and possibly have CompCams recommend the cam and other supporting parts to parallel the Trick Flow kit. Maybe..........but not till I exhaust the Trick Flow route, cause the cam swap could be simple.

My goal here is to keep the parts cost at $3K or so, then have them put on and the car tuned. I'm guessing a tune will definitely be in order.


Would it be dumb to just throw on an intake and heads without the supporting hardware? For example, some "direct replacement parts" like the AFR 165s and the Edel intake.

Click to expand...

Not at all,
I bet It would run really well, and have good idle w/ the stock cam, however, adding the mild "smoggable" cam would put a little icing on that cake!!!

Dante'

"Clean Burning"

final5-0 said:

I somehow think you guys are looking for the correct hardware to be the
solution of putting out clean emissions. I would say to you , based upon
my findings, software can be another solution to the problem

We need different hardware (speed parts) to make more hp

We then have an issue that our hardware is no longer compatible
with our software (pcm)

If you optimize your pcm to match all your new speed parts, you most
likely are gonna pass emissions if talking about a reasonable street
or light strip combo

btw ... I'm talking about clean burning
and
Not any kind of visual thing here
which in some states ... they'll fail a car with speed parts

anyway ...........

I got a low lsa cam with a good bit of duration and an idle that is
pretty rough.
It has all the stuff you see peeps say all the time
won't work our pcm's and will fail emissions

Here is all I can say about what I've found with my little GT

I got drivability just like a stocker with exception of cam lope with
the help of self tuning

I've passed strict Texas state annual emissions roller dyno kind of testing
now for several years with the help of self tuning to ensure I have optimum
spark and fuel for a clean burn

I just wanted to share ... there are other methods out there

Grady

Click to expand...

You raise a good point! I'm in San Diego, and they check every F***kin thing. They will definitely fail you visually, as well as Dyno + Sniffer. They fail people with cai's all the time, if they don't have a Cali "CArb Exempt" sticker like you can get w/ an true K&N kit.

As far as the tune, did you pcm tune your car yourself or have it done? The computer stuff intimidates me a little, don't have a laptop or Tweecer. I'd be willing to do it if I knew where to go here in San Diego. Other than that, I'd probably just have to use parts that are "smog legal" to begin with. California Sucks sometimes!

Dante'

WOW

This thread just took off didn't it

So many Q's ... Not sure where to start

I'll be happy to share what I've learned with my GT

How about if we start with ... Passing emissions

As I see it ... the issue is all about getting a sticker
and
Its not really about burning clean

You can burn clean and fail for political reasons like visual in
some states.

I'm told by my guys that inspect my GT each year, Texas is right
behind Ca when talking about strict rules and regulations

Here is how I dealt with all that

Before I did my current combo ... I had no concerns for a clean burn as
I knew from research ... I could tune around that prob
but
I did have concerns for visual issues

LT's were an ABSOLUTE MUST in making my plans happen successfully
sooooooo
I asked my buds at the inspection place about the straight skinny of
Texas laws and LT's.

They said as long as all other emissions equipment was in place and
all hoses, wires, etc were connected and a clean test result was
obtained ... I could get a sticker. They did stress I could have nothing
disabled, capped off or anything obvious like that going on.

So ... There you have it ... and having said that ............
If you live in a state with strict laws ... I'd look around for loop hole
you can take advantage of ... one way or the other

To show you how a good tune can make all the difference in clean
burning conditions .............

I got my pcm egr input on a toggle switch with my Wide Band

Several years ago, before going for a sticker ............
I forgot to invoke the pcm parameters in the pcm that would
make the egr become once again active
and
I forgot to flip my little switch to make egr function again

I passed the test with flying colors anyway
and
I looked at the results from the previous year with egr active ...
They looked very similar

So much for emissions I guess

I will go back through all those above posts and see if I can offer
anything of value to any Q's or Concerns

Grady

Car Nut said:

Grady,

I see your point big time. I'm not opposed to a tune at all. I figured the "kit" would be good because the kit has new parts that are proven to work together AND they will be replacing seriously old stuff. The additional kit parts won't net me more HP, however, it may net me more reliability.

Maybe the TF stage 1 cam will work fine and with a custom tune will allow the combo to pass the sniffer.

I've taken great car of my car over the years and will keep all the emissions equipment (which is in good shape). I'm not "very" worried about emissions, but the fact is it must be passed.

Click to expand...

Gee Andy ... I would have to think it could do that.

The nice thing about this kit is so many have used it
You have a broad database to draw research from to help with decisions

From all things I've been able to find about idle issues which can be
tied to emissions because ... they test at idle ... is this ...........

Low lsa cams which are also cams with a good bit of duration ..........
they can be a cause for concern with these kinds of issues if one
is gonna try and build a combo without a tune.

The lsa on my cam is a good bit lower than on that TFS cam.
After I got my stuff together about what I trying to do
Things worked out fine with the help of tuning

So ... At least to me ... Logic would say that cam should be fine
with these issues if a tune is put in place.

Hey ... I don't try to hide it at all

When talking cams ... I just took the easy way out

I just paid a bit more and stressed to Ed Curtis this line of thinking ...
I would be able to tune around emissions and drivability issues
and
I wanted him to place my wishes for a broad torque curve .......
over drivability & emissions concerns.

The thing about all that is ... I had no self tuning experience at that time
however
I had did tons and tons of research ... but ... research ain't the same
as doing it

If I did it all over again ...
I'd tell Ed to step it up a notch or two with the specs for more power

I do really think if one places a focus on drivability issues when choosing
a cam they very well could be leaving power on the table.

Of course ... the flip side of that statement is .........
To do like I did and use a tune to kill any drivability issues ...
You gotta spend the dadgum cash for a chip or tuning equipment

I need my power to be in the idle to 5,500 rpm range. Not too many people bold enough to make that statement!

Click to expand...

Hey ... Knowing what you want ... It critical to obtaining it

I said the same thing at first
but
I changed my game plan by a small amount after a bit of research

After looking at many sets of dyno pulls of mid length runner uppers
I felt I could get a bit more high end with shorter runners
and
Use other combo parts and tune to offset its softer low end

I guess I could simplify this by throwing out this question:

Would it be wise to just throw on a good set of heads and intake? OR would it be wiser to go for a kit that will replace a few more stock internal parts?

Here is what is included in the TF kit:

Kit Contents:
TFS-51402000 Hydraulic roller camshaft, each
TFS-51400510 Roller rocker arms, set of 16
TFS-21406700 Chromemoly pushrods, set of 16
TFS-51400904 Gasket kit, each
TFS-51400801 Silver valve covers, pair
TFS-51400004 Twisted Wedge aluminum cylinder heads, pair
TFS-51500001 EFI intake manifold, silver upper, kit
ARP-154-3601 Head bolts, kit
TFS-51400800 Oil fill kit
TFS-51478520 Billet timing chain, set
FEL-TCS45449 Timing cover, set

*** Lifters are not included, but I would get new ones.


Here are the stage 1 cam specs:

Duration@ .050" 221°/225°
Cam Lift .312/.319
Valve Lift with 1.6 Rocker Lobe .499/.510
Separation 112°

TF Notes:
Good idle, strong midrange power. Aftermarket intake, heads, and headers recommended. Requires modified mass airflow. Compression: 9:1 minimum

Click to expand...

I just gotta say I believe my cam which was cut to be optimized with my
choice of heads and intake has a good bit to do with how things turned
out with my combo.

Would it be all that different to say the same about that kit as well

Again ... many peeps have used it with pretty good success

I did look at your original post above and would bring up this

If you do this kit now and go to a built short block later

I think the parts would be too small if going 347 stroker
of course
If going 306 ... All would be fine IMHO

About your Q of internal parts

You might look in that thread where we all were talking about h/c/i
or blowers for my thoughts about various options when building up
a new short block.

Hope I helped
or
At least caused you to think outside of the box a bit

Grady