Turbo Build

modulistic said:

do they make a decent crate dart longblock I can just order and have shipped up here?

any links? I want like 12psi

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http://www.smedingperformance.com/ford/

My dad had one of their Extreme 347s. It was a turn-key motor but he never had a chance to put it in his 67 mustang that he had. The engine never made it out of the crate before he had to sell it...so I don't know how it ran. They dyno the engine before they ship it to you tho. I think it made like 409hp and over 420 lb/ft of torque. It wasn't earthshattering hp/tq but it was also very conservatively built. It Had Edelbrock Performer RPM heads, Edelbrock Perf. RPM intake and a Holley 750 carb....I think...it might have been a 650.

Here is the thing you are going to have to understand.
Stock blocks no matter how built only put up with 500rwhp. Even that number will eventually get the best of it (i consider 450rwhp a wiser goal), doesn't matter if you use stock internals or the best parts you can buy. Result is still the same.

That $3000 shortblock will do nothing different than a stock shortblock when boosted.
Only difference will be is that when it blows (and it will) you will have a $3000 pile of scrap metal instead of a $500 pile.

The engine you list is a value if you intend on keeping the car NA.
Otherwise you are just wasting a ton of money.

Unless you goto a dart, A4, r302 or boss block, your goal will have to be less than 500rwhp.
This is not an opinion, it is a fact. There isn't some unheard of solution hiding on the internet to be found.
Either lower your goal or raise your budget. Those are your options.

On3 turbo,supporting mods,and a tune. Done. 450+ rwhp on your stock 302. Now if you need to replace your current engine i.e it's tired you have choices. You can get a junkyard 5.0,rebuild existing,buy a "new" engine with the turbo,mods,etc. A n/a 450hp stroker is an option but you're not going to get to 450rwhp and talking about a 2500-3000$ shortblock,2000$heads,all the supporting mods,etc etc. 400rwhp is possible. If this is a toy/race car you can go in either direction. Like stated Before all the extras really add up. Fuel system,transmission,tuning equipment, all of it has to be addressed to support/live at those power levels.

after 7 pages, you've got some good stuff in here. check post #116 for my recommendation. If you go turbo, you don't have to go too fancy with the H/C/I setup. The turbo is going to do the heavy lifting for you.

My take on it:

If you go NA 347 the best you are probably going to get is around 400rwhp. I've seen between 425rwhp and 450rwhp but that is done by guys that do this for a living.

I don't believe in rebuilding 302's or 306's it's too much money that you get nothing for. That still costs $1000 more than just using an explorer shortblock. So IMO, it's 347 or a used explorer engine. A member even made a post recently about why he shouldn't have built a 306.

If you go the power adder route on stock shortblock, do not rely solely on the power adder to meet your goals. The stock parts are too restrictive and it will take too much boost. The more boost you need the more trouble you will have with things like intake and head gaskets. Get some decent heads, gt40x, edelbrock rpm, tw's, afr 165's, a good street cam and decent intake/tb and you are set.

If you really think there is a future dart build, buy the tw's so you can easily have them cnc'ed (something i've said before) by TEA.

In my time, i've seen 450rwhp reached about as many ways as possible.
I stand by the most cost effective reliable way to do it as a hci setup coupled with a vortech S trim (or whatever model it is now). It's a proven setup and you will have plenty of tech support from people on how to get it setup and running correctly. If that on3 turbo setup goes wrong (and i've only seen it go wrong in person), good luck finding an paying someone to fix it.

My pick if it were me? Get an explorer shortblock, sell off the heads and intake, give it a cam and some TW's and an intake and drive it. Worry about the rest of the engine later while you build up the suspension, brakes, trans and rear. Because 450rwhp will break your trans, show you how mediocre your brakes are, cause your rear to spin one wheel and let you know your suspension is sloppy at best.

Why not go to a 351? That's about the only other solution laying between stock and aftermarket block 302 blocks.

The 351 based engine (i say based because i figure the sensible build is a 408 or similar) is a good idea, but still has it's group of hurdles.
Swap parts, better heads (no point in doing a 408 if you are going to use 302 heads) and a ground up build is still going to use up 6 grand maybe more without a power adder, although you could use one later, it just better be something potent and the engine would need to be built with quality parts.

The base 408 from fordstrokers is $3000 and that is literally just the shortblock.
As we have said multiple times here, big numbers aren't cheap no matter how you slice it.

You could go that route, but much like the 'revered' JY LS swaps, just as many people are doing the same thing with JY 351s. I think the guy on TTF with the 79 coupe is in the 8s now on a stock shortblock, and has been racing it for a few seasons, not to mention street driving.

Is it wise? probably not, but interesting. A mild setup with decent heads would more than handle what the OP is after.

I'd definitely build a 408 with funds permitting, but a 351/357 would still get the job done if needed. You could always make the argument of "if you are rebuilding it, you may as well stroke it." But recently, I've been a fan of "If it aint broke, don't fix it."

You are definitely correct in saying it has it's own set of hurdles with swap parts, etc.

2000xp8 said:

The 351 based engine (i say based because i figure the sensible build is a 408 or similar) is a good idea, but still has it's group of hurdles.
Swap parts, better heads (no point in doing a 408 if you are going to use 302 heads) and a ground up build is still going to use up 6 grand maybe more without a power adder, although you could use one later, it just better be something potent and the engine would need to be built with quality parts.

The base 408 from fordstrokers is $3000 and that is literally just the shortblock.
As we have said multiple times here, big numbers aren't cheap no matter how you slice it.

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BUT, what you are overlooking is a W will do 800 hp. It doesn't have to be a 408, it could be a 351 with boost and the block will handle it. If you could scratch up some rods crank and pistons, let er rip. You do not have to spend 3k on it, you just have to know how to build an engine.

Boosted92LX said:

BUT, what you are overlooking is a W will do 800 hp. It doesn't have to be a 408, it could be a 351 with boost and the block will handle it. If you could scratch up some rods crank and pistons, let er rip. You do not have to spend 3k on it, you just have to know how to build an engine.

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I'd say most people here aren't qualified to build their own short block. I'd also guess that the ones that do know how to build an engine properly aren't here asking questions about building an engine.

Regardless, stock 351 engines aren't known for putting up with much more power than stock 302, the block does but the internals don't. So if you are going to pay someone to assemble an engine and buy internals, imo it would be kinda nuts to pay them to build you another 351.

The posts are numbered in each thread. For example, this post is #135 (see the bottom right corner of the post). In #116, I linked a member's combo that I would duplicate if I were you. The only thing I wouldn't do is port GT40s. I'd do as little as required to get an explorer motor running right and let the turbo do the work. The better the H/C/I combo, the less boost you will need. That said an intercooled turbo should be fine at less than 15 psi on premium gas WITH A GOOD TUNE. Pay for a quality tune and use someone local if possible.

2000xp8 said:

I'd say most people here aren't qualified to build their own short block. .

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I don't know if this is accurate, but if it is, that's too bad, It's not difficult. If you have the mental capacity to pull an engine out of a car and reinstall it, you have the capacity to rebuild a shortblock. You just have to read, and learn.

2000xp8 said:

I'd also guess that the ones that do know how to build an engine properly aren't here asking questions about building an engine.

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Maybe they'd like to learn, hence the questions?

2000xp8 said:

Regardless, stock 351 engines aren't known for putting up with much more power than stock 302, the block does but the internals don't. So if you are going to pay someone to assemble an engine and buy internals, imo it would be kinda nuts to pay them to build you another 351.

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I strongly disagree with this, respectfully. My point is/was-Why pay someone to assemble an engine when you can learn to do it yourself? Anyone with more will power and intellect than money can buy good used parts, and assemble a decent engine for a crap ton less money than an "engine builder" will do it for. If a person wants to go north of 500 hp on limited finance a 351 has been and always will be a viable way to meet that goal. I'm not the only person in this camp. This is called "hot rodding", and it's been around a while, though it seems to be dying off. Sadly. To me, "nuts" is paying someone else my hard earned money to do something I'm smart enough to learn, and not too lazy to try. I mean, that's why people come here right? to gain knowledge? Just my .02. Sorry to rant...

Boosted92LX said:

I don't know if this is accurate, but if it is, that's too bad, It's not difficult. If you have the mental capacity to pull an engine out of a car and reinstall it, you have the capacity to rebuild a shortblock. You just have to read, and learn.



Maybe they'd like to learn, hence the questions?

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Pulling an engine and building one are two completely different things. One is mechanical work, the other detail work that takes time, experience and often a machine shop.
Most racers and repair shops don't build their own engines, so why would it be odd that the average consumer doesn't?
Some things are better off in the hands of someone that does it everyday.

He didn't ask any questions about building an engine, in fact he did just the opposite linked us to shortblocks he was considering.

I believe in doing things yourself, but most people have limits. Knowing those limits is important. Maybe you don't have any and you never pay a person to do a single thing, that's great, but that isn't everyone.

Yes people come here to learn, but the starting point in learning shouldn't be the most intricate thing that you could possibly do to a car.

I read through this post and the moral of the story is, you have to pay to play. 3 years ago I opted to rebuild my 302 sportsman block (not DART sportsman) with the intent that after a few years of enjoyment and upgrades to fuel, suspension tranny etc.. I would start to build a DART based 363 so when I add a SC to my stock block I have something to fall back on when/if it fails. I built a carb 347 w/ worked AFR 205's, 850 DP a big cam and 10.8.1 compression, for a grand total of 415 rwhp and 398 lbs. this wasn't the cheapest options and unfortunately a lot broke around the motor preventing me from using it much over the last 3 years. Now I'm adding a Procharger and a butt load of supporting top of the line parts to put me into the 550 rwhp, w/ meth inj for those interested.

Odds are my block will eventually fail but the 363 is in with the engine builder and will go in when I get every penny out of the stock block.

Having to do all over again I would have built up everything else on the car while enjoying it stock and when the funds were available I would have spent a good deal of money building 1 bullet proof motor.

We are all on a quest to build fast cars now, the smart ones wait, build up the supporting parts, build a killer motor and spend 10k less then me.