Turbo or Supercharge 351w

[montys69mach]

Hey guys, The next thing to do on my car is to build the motor. I have two. The original 1969 2v 351w or a 351c that I recently bought. I really want to do something with the motor that will put between 500-600rwhp on 93 pump gas and I can't decide what one to build. If I build the Windsor I was thinking of stroking it to a 393 or 408 and adding the Paxton Novi1500 supercharger kit for a 69 351w. http://www.paxtonauto.com/systems_1001843.html
or
Build the windsor keeping a stock stroke, using forged pistons and rods, add a set of alum heads and do a twin turbo setup with Garrett GT35s.
or
Same as above with twin GT35s on the Clev with either 2 or 4v heads (have both), stock crank, forged pistons and rods.

My goal is to have a fast reliable street car that will turn heads and draw a nice crowd at local shows. I want to do something a little different, but seems to be the trend today and thats adding forced induction.

 

[BLK91LX1uponu]

Hey guys, The next thing to do on my car is to build the motor. I have two. The original 1969 2v 351w or a 351c that I recently bought. I really want to do something with the motor that will put between 500-600rwhp on 93 pump gas and I can't decide what one to build. If I build the Windsor I was thinking of stroking it to a 393 or 408 and adding the Paxton Novi1500 supercharger kit for a 69 351w. http://www.paxtonauto.com/systems_1001843.html
or
Build the windsor keeping a stock stroke, using forged pistons and rods, add a set of alum heads and do a twin turbo setup with Garrett GT35s.
or
Same as above with twin GT35s on the Clev with either 2 or 4v heads (have both), stock crank, forged pistons and rods.

My goal is to have a fast reliable street car that will turn heads and draw a nice crowd at local shows. I want to do something a little different, but seems to be the trend today and thats adding forced induction.

I have the same delima as you... I am torn between a dart 302 stroker to 351 or a dart 351w stroked to a 408. I have decided to go the 408w route. I am very please with the 408 supercharged setups. I was like you and wondering if I should go the turbo route. If your only looking for 600hp then the turbo is not the way to go cost wise. I have decided that a super charged 408 can easly make 600hp without really trying. I wanted the oh $hit factor when people open the hood. The bottom line is you will still get it with a supercharger.

 

[steel1212]

I would go the turbo route. Everybody has paxtons on their cars not to many classics with turbos. On top of that if you do the twins thats even better! You also get to have a small rear gear and cruise easier with a turbo so there for better gas mileage.

 

[classic boost]

depending on your fab skills, s/c will definately be the easier route. although turbos are great, there is alot of time, money, and fabbing involved with it.
i would recommend a s/c, but try to use a novi 2000 (or similar size). a novi2000 on a 351 would get you 600 without trying. you could use the 408 stroker money on a really good set of heads.

 

[montys69mach]

Thanks for the replies...I will not be doing the install myself. There is a local turbo guy by me that does custom setups. John at JBE racing has been turbocharging v8 motors for years, he has a great reputation here on Long Island. He said either a single or twin turbo would meet my goals, a twin setup would look better, but will also be more costly. He said he will change the fuel system as well, he takes the base of a manifold and makes his own, as well as the base to a 4v carb and does a custom injection system with the turbos. I am going by his shop tomorrow with my car so he can "visualize" a setup and than he will come up with a few options and numbers for me. I haven't mentioned the S'charger to him but I will see what he says. I know its up to me and what I want but I would like to stay within a resonable budget and not go to crazy. He won't be able to get me in till the winter because he's busy and he said he'll need at least a month to work on the car. I'm fine with that being that its in the winter and it gives me more of an opportunity to save $$$ and research different options and setups.
Paul your motor looks amazing, I looked at your pics sooo many times...nice job! Did you do the work yourself? Can you PM me a list of your setup and other numbers such as hp & tq, track times, and costs if you don't mind me asking. Thanks

 

[65mistress]

Monty, I have to agree with you, that engine that you put together Paul is just absolutely awesome. I would like to know the figures for HP/TQ and any track times that you have.
I'm looking for a 69 351w block so that I can start a similar set up for a 57 Fairlane, a lot more room to work with under those hoods, so I was thinking if not a single turbo, than possibly a dual turbo set up. My mustang is going to be pretty much stock for cruising purposes.

 

[mtbdoc]

I am having a 408W being built as we speak. Other than ported aluminum heads, big cam, super victor manifold...there will be an ATI D2 supercharger. My builder does turbos and S/C's...much prefers setting up a blow-through for a S/C as the tuning is more straightforward. Looking at ~650 to the wheels. For a more serious motor he uses a Dart block and F2 supercharger...but that is close to 1000 @ the crank...more than I need for my 66.

That said, turbos really are the better approach IF you can accept the added cost and complexity. I know that there are guys doing blow-through carbs w/ turbos [come on and jump in, guys!], but I would go efi w/ the turbo. My daily driver GTO is marvelous w/ the turbo. >500 rwhp and stock cam = pulls just fine from 800 rpm! Just the ticket for rush hour traffic...especially when the traffic opens up for a moment.

 

[classic boost]

I know its up to me and what I want but I would like to stay within a resonable budget and not go to crazy.

with custon injection, ect, i think you'll choke when you get an estimate.

Paul your motor looks amazing, I looked at your pics sooo many times...nice job! Did you do the work yourself? Can you PM me a list of your setup and other numbers such as hp & tq, track times, and costs if you don't mind me asking. Thanks

thanks. no, i didn't do the work myself. a local header friend of mine did the fabbing. i just told where and how i wanted stuff.
my only full pass (15psi) with a horrible bog as 11.44@133. on an 'ok' launch i got a 10.90@119 on the brakes (probably headed for a 10.50 pass). i sent the converter back because it was way too loose.
i never tallied the cost because it's too depressing engine work and parts, fabbing, tranny and converter, rear end, rims and tires, fuel system, guages and wideband= estimated $20,000+ and still climbing.

 

[montys69mach]

133 is an awsome mph!! I can see the numbers (cost) going in that direction, especially if I convert from auto to manual which I am debating as well. Right now I have the original FMX in the car. When I bought the Cleveland I also got a newly rebuilt C6 with it. I know the c6 can take a beaten and handle the power a TT 351 will put down but to me its just not as fun to drive as the manual. Also why do some people say a turbo works better with an auto? I know its easier to spool up the turbo, but with a stick you can brake boost to get it going, so I would say its a preference not that one is better. Paul you said the converter was way to loose, what one are you running and what converter would you suggest for a TT 351w? The guy that will be doing my work said the tricky part will be finding the right converter. I would think a mild cam would work better in this case also, especially being that I'm looking to drive the car a lot.

 

[69in2006]

hey just to give different view, I m in the midst of planning a 2.2 KB on a 347 to go inmy 69..Plan on driving it often..KB awesome power for the street..EFI and gonna back it with 5spd..3.25 or so in rear end, so low cruising rpm..Hope to have it done end of summer..450-500 rwhp and flat torque curve from about 2000..

 

[montys69mach]

thanks for the input, sounds like it will be fun. good luck and keep us posted.
BTW I went to JBE racing today and John looked at the car. He could do a twin setup but it would be tricky to fab the exhaust. He said a single might be the way to go. I told him about a few guys on this forum who are running turbos and he told me to keep researching so we'll have a plan laid out and start the turbo project over the winter. I emailed him a few of Pauls engine picks just so he can see what I like (nice and clean). I am getting the engine bay detailed soon so when I pull the motor I will start rebuilding it. Any advice on heads, pistons, rods, crank, cam? The motor is a stock 69 windsor. When I build it I will drive it NA until he is ready for my turbo project come winter time.

 

[electricgreen]

Just from a "observer" standpoint (not huge in motor knowledge)....I would go turbo on a small motor (4 or 6 cyl), supercharger on a bigger (v8) motor. Supercharger is parasitic, but easier. Turbo uses the motor to make power, but is more complex...

 

[mdjay]

I'm not a big turbo fan on early model stangs, but good to go on my deisel

More old school I guess but the sc is much easier to install. Especially with shock towers in the way lol.

Either way, both power adders on a windsor will result in some serious numbers.

Take my word, good luck hookin' it up!!! Slicks come into mind

 

[montys69mach]

yeah I looked into the supercharger and from my research, and people I talked to with them say that with a paxton there only making boost between say 4k and 6500rpm. compared to turbos which come in a lot earlier at around 2200-2500rpm with loads of torque all the way through the rpm range. Many of the people I talked to running supercharges say you really don't know its there under 4k, feels like a NA motor until it hits. When it does come in you feel it but it only lasts 2500rpms. Anyone like to comment on this feel free, as I don't have a SC and have not driven or been in a early mustang with one.
mdjay I stiffend the chassis by adding subframes, and I did all the suspension work on the car. Once I get the motor in I will see how it goes and will probably use cal-tracs or something to help put the power down. I have a set of 275/40/17 DRs that I will use on the street to help also.

 

[mdjay]

That depends on how you build the motor relational to the charger! ex A strong motor with low boost is a nice combo

 

[madbrad]

A 10 sec turbo motor is that same as a 10 sec SC motor. It all depends on how you build the motor. If you want a turbo, then build it for a turbo and you'll love it. Same goes for the SC. I have a roots blower on my 67 and it not possolbe to keep traction in any gear. If you build it correctly you'll be happy no matter what. Just make up you mind and stick to it.

 

[mdjay]

mdjay I stiffend the chassis by adding subframes, and I did all the suspension work on the car. Once I get the motor in I will see how it goes and will probably use cal-tracs or something to help put the power down. I have a set of 275/40/17 DRs that I will use on the street to help also.

Well with the numbers you should be pushin', you're probably gonna need more tire

 

[mtbdoc]

Well with the numbers you should be pushin', you're probably gonna need more tire

Yep...if I didn't have 12+" of rubber under my rear quarters, I wouldn't be building my monster motor, that's for sure! My engine builder has reminded me of the characteristics of the centrifugal blower: if the front wheels start to come off the ground ~4000 rpm, it will get VERY interesting around 6500.

I am absolutely delighted to see more folks building killer engines for the classics. When I bought the 'vert in '79, there just was NO interest in trying to make these things really fast and streetable. "Just restore it"...yeah, right!

 

[brianj5600]

A 10 sec turbo motor is that same as a 10 sec SC motor. It all depends on how you build the motor.

Everything but the cam. A stock 5.0 cam will work if all you want is 10's with a turbo. A few people have gone 10's with a stock 5.0 long block and a turbo.

 

[10secgoal]

Don't forget the gears. Huge portion of why I went that route. I can do 70-75 mph again.