V-Belt vs Serpentine Questions???

[horseballz]

Sooo....
I've just had a friend bring me a "basket case" 66 convertible with a late model,unfinished 5.0/T5 conversion. At this time the engine has (installed) all of the serpentine pulleys except for the water pump. It has an air pump (delete), alternator and idler/tensioner on pass side and P/S pump (delete), A/C compressor (delete). We are trying to decide which way would be easier/more effective/cheaper to go for belt(s) after pulling all the un-needed stuff. From what it looks like, once we eliminate the stuff leaving only crank pulley, water pump, alternator and tensioner, it changes the rotation of the water pump from reverse to standard? Now all the pulleys, alternator and water pump are currently chrome, which is kinda cool, but I'm not sure if the pump has already been changed to a standard rotation or not. And once changed to a standard rotation pump, I've been led to believe that you need a different timing cover for it to work properly. Funny thing is that I currently see some vendors selling timing covers that are listed to work with standard or reverse water pumps. What's the real deal here? I'll try to get some numbers off the pump to see if it's standard or reverse. When I call this a basket case, so far we've found:
>Granada "type" spindles/brakes not plumbed/working ,no tie rod ends. I'll get some numbers for proper I.D.
>Front springs installed upside down with the rubber donut isolators on the bottom on top of the spring perches
>Engine/transmission was installed 2"-3" too far forward due to having the motor mount supports swapped right to left (tunnel was cut to accommodate)
>The pulley debacle

This is not planned as a restoration, but just want to put it into a runnable, rust free project for sale, leaving to the buyer to choose what direction to go and what i's to dot and t's to cross. Needless to say, I will have at least a bunch of questions in the near future! Any help/comments are appreciated.
Thanx,
Gene

 

[2+2GT]

You can use the "5.0 conversion" radiator to run the 5.0 with all it's belt stuff intact, or you can swap over to the stock 66 stuff, with a "5.0 conversion" balancer. What you can't do is mix and match. That's a recipe for disaster, which you already have in a couple of cases.

 

[horseballz]

2+2GT,
You said:
"What you can't do is mix and match. That's a recipe for disaster, which you already have in a couple of cases."
Exactly why I posted the questions. Radiator is not an issue as it needs one anyway. I can't use all the original late model stuff as we are eliminating the air/smog pump, A/C compressor and power steering pump, which leaves me with a belt setup that turns the water pump in standard (clockwise) rotation no matter whether I use the v-belt or serpentine setup. I guess the real question is: Can I use a standard rotation water pump with a late model timing cover? I know it will bolt up, but am concerned about proper geometry for proper cooling.
Thanks,
Gene

 

[69gmachine]

Either way this is a big project. If you want to keep it EFI, then I'd recommend retaining the serp set up. On the other hand, if you plan to switch to a carb, then change the timing cover to use a mech fuel pump (will also need an eccentric) and plan to buy the correct water pump and pulleys. I'd go with the carb set up as it's much easier to get it up and running compared with a hi pressure electric fuel pump, new fuel lines, EFI harness etc.

 

[mustangmutt]

A standard rotation water pump will bolt on. Where you might run into issues is the timing pointer and the 5.0 cover will not accomodate a mechanical fuel pump. (Don't know if you are going FI or Carb) I put a Ford Racing 302 in a '66. If I remember right, in order to run a mechanical fuel pump and dress the engine up like a '66 I had to change the Timing Chain to one that would accept the fuel pump eccentric, an old style front cover, standard rotation water pump, harmonic ballancer that had the timing marks set up for the old 289 and a timing pointer for the 289.

 

[2+2GT]

Ah, I don't think the water passages in the reverse cover line up with the standard pump. If you install a fuel pump eccentric, and 66 cover, pump, fuel pump, pulleys, brackets, and a "5.0 conversion" balancer, it'll all work perfectly, and look like stone-stock 66, except it'll have the power of a 5.0. Very "stealth"

 

[horseballz]

Thanx for the great info, guys. According to a seemingly knowledgeable tech at Ford Racing either pump can be used on either cover "as long as" the rear plate of the pump has round port holes instead of D/U shaped. He said most/many after market, replacement and rebuilt pumps have the round ports to allow wider application coverage for a given part number. We are going with a carb, but there is already a new Holley "Red" electric pump laying in the trunk and a new timing cover isn't really in the budget. We are looking to maximize an estimated $700-$1500 turn around for getting it roll (not road) worthy. Every extra $100 detracts, yet we certainly don't want to sell a roach. Obviously if it was a car "I" was gonna keep, I would be anal, but the car will sell cheap enough that the buyer can dot the i's and cross the t's to his own liking. It WILL have correctly working brakes, start, drive, steer, charge and stop properly but still be simply a rust free convertible restoration project car. It will be a nice platform, yet still be a "blank canvas" for a restoration/resto-mod or roachy (yet dependable) driver/work in progress.
Thanks,
Gene

 

[DukeGnarley]

when i put the 5.0 into my '66, I just used a 5.0 swap radiator and a kit from march performance which put the alternator on the passenger side and the tensioner on the driver side. It maintained the proper rotation for the serpentine system. I also had to use an electric fuel pump.

it looks like this

 

[68stang351]

when i put the 5.0 into my '66, I just used a 5.0 swap radiator and a kit from march performance which put the alternator on the passenger side and the tensioner on the driver side. It maintained the proper rotation for the serpentine system. I also had to use an electric fuel pump.

I did the same thing on my 68. Then I got tired of the way the tensioner looked over there by itself and took it off. I use the adjustable link for the alternator to tension the belt. I know it doesn't look like much belt wrap, but it doesn't over heat in the TX summer.

 

[horseballz]

Well,
Thanks for all the thoughts. A March setup is WAAYYY out of the budget, but a cool setup. It turns out the pump is a standard rotation so I"ll just use the grooved pump pulley that came with the car (it also had a smaller diameter "smooth" pulley) and use the OEM tensioner between the alternator and fan. And the timing cover is a standard rotation style with no fuel pump mount, looks like RTCF-302D. Bonus is the pump, alternator and all pulleys are chrome Woo-Hoo! DOH!
Thanks again,
Gene

 

[Hack]

When I put a newer roller cam 302 motor into my '70, I read up on all the timing cover info. I remember that many people were saying an older timing cover wouldn't work with a newer reverse-rotation pump. So, I went to a local U-pull-it junkyard and got a cheap timing cover from a mid-70s Ford pickup 302, thinking I wouldn't be able to use it, but I wanted to give it a shot.

My car works fine. I've driven it for years with a reverse rotation pump and an old timing cover that came off a V-belt engine with a standard rotation pump. It doesn't overheat or run hot. The thing that I like the least is the dipstick. The original engine had the dipstick on the timing cover, which puts it right in the way of the 5.0 Mustang serpentine alternator bracket. I got it to function, but the dipstick tube has some extra bends in it and I don't love the way it works or where it's located.

I just looked at the timing cover passages and compared them to the water pump passages when I was putting the motor together. They matched up fine on the parts that I have. So I guess my advice is to take the earlier comments with a grain of salt. When you buy gaskets for a 302 Ford water pump you will see there are lots of different shapes through the years. Maybe I just got lucky and found the unusual exact match - or maybe most of them will work. I'm not sure.