Want 35 more hp

Pops Fun · Nov 20, 2011

Hi
Basically I want to get to 600hp... then I am done
I have 565 rwhp and need 35 more hp to make my goal.
Of course money money is always a concern.

Couple thoughts...
Extrude hone Upper and Lower Intake 10-20 hp I think.

Parts list

347 Ci Dart block SHP 8.5 to 1 Compression Ratio Dyno Tuned SCT Chip TFS TW Heads ported Cobra Intake ported Intake Spacer 1/2 inch Vortech V-2 SQ With 2.85 Pulley Anderson Power Pipe Maxflow bypass valve Snow Water Meth 2 Stage 65mm T/B MAF SCT Big Mouth BA 3000 60# injectors H&S 1.72 Roller Rockers MSD 6al Glenns Performance fuel rails Glenns Performance Dual Walbro sys JBA ceramic coated Shorty Headers Dynomax Ultra Flo SS Exhaust Spec 3+ Clutch TKO 600 Blow Proof Housing Subframe Connectors Welded Torque boxes Ford 3.73 Gear Tokico shocks and struts Mega Bite Upper and Lower Control arms

revhead347 · Nov 20, 2011

I think with the power you're making, the Cobra intake is holding you back. I would just swap to a bigger intake. 4Jenna just swapped out his Holley Systemax to something bigger, maybe he'll give you a good deal on his old Systemax setup.

Kurt

BlackVert · Nov 20, 2011

+1 on the intake.

how about a 2.75 pulley?

but the shorty headers may also be holding you back

Pops Fun · Nov 20, 2011

BlackVert said:
+1 on the intake.

how about a 2.75 pulley?

but the shorty headers may also be holding you back

I am spinning the vortech at about 2000 rpm over the max now...

Pops Fun · Nov 20, 2011

revhead347 said:
I think with the power you're making, the Cobra intake is holding you back. I would just swap to a bigger intake. 4Jenna just swapped out his Holley Systemax to something bigger, maybe he'll give you a good deal on his old Systemax setup.

Kurt

I believe with the extrude honing it will outflow most intakes.... could be wrong though.

The way I read this the cobra out flowed the systemax.
flow numbers on holley systemax - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum

revhead347 · Nov 20, 2011

I had an extrude honed Cobra intake after having a regular Cobra intake, and then a ported Cobra intake. I couldn't even tell the difference. Visually you couldn't tell much of a difference. It definately doesn't come close to out flowing a larger intake like a Systemax or a Performer RPM. That data is twisted.

Kurt

VibrantRedGT · Nov 21, 2011

Systemax Intake and retune and I'll be you hit that number. I've had both intakes and there was no way I was putting the Edelbrock on my 347. I also went overkill on the exhaust 1-3/4" Ceramic LT's w/ 3" Collector and 3" exhaust all the way back. This would also benefit you as well.

revhead347 · Nov 21, 2011

I'm not an Edelbrock fan because they are impractical. I do recognize that the intake does perform well though. It's pretty hard to beat a Systemax though.

Kurt

revhead347 · Nov 21, 2011

Finally got to reading that post. The guy was trying to flow the heads with the intake on them. More likely they just didn't bolt it up matched properly. They had also done a bunch of port work to the Systemax, and there's a good chance they screwed up the port work. Some machinest get into the porting service, and think it's just about making holes bigger, and it's more complicated than that. This is an intake shootout from MM&FF, and I realize these articles are hit or miss. They picked up about 20hp with the Systemax and a little more with the Victor 5.0. That's pretty consistent with logic, because the Systemax is a big long runner intake, and the Victor is a big short runner intake.

Super Intake Shootout - Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords

Kurt

95snoozer · Nov 21, 2011

intake and ...

this is an old article but very helpful. It is not just flow rates that determine power. Otherwise, trick flows would always make more power than afr 165s.

http://www.andersonfordmotorsport.com/dmdocuments/media/runner5.htm

use the arrows on the bottom of the link to navigate the different intake results. You will be pleasantly surprised, especially in the results from a very "street" intake's results on a blown renegade car.

There is a very clear winner here. Both Higher average power as well as one of the highest peak numbers of ALL intakes tested including the race intakes.
http://www.andersonfordmotorsport.com/dmdocuments/media/runner4.htm

you will probably be interested to read this test with controlled numbers and 70 pulls, the hooker longtubes did not increase peak HP over any of the shorties out there.

http://www.andersonfordmotorsport.com/dmdocuments/media/long1.htm

How many changes would you need for a T trim?

fox TB setup? HEHE. this would be an interesting "test"

ProKiller · Nov 21, 2011

I agree with a bunch of the others Steve. I think swapping out that cobra intake will get you close if not there. if you match that with a 75mm fox style T/B, i think that will put you at the 600 you're looking for.

Pops Fun · Nov 22, 2011

95snoozer said:
intake and ...

this is an old article but very helpful. It is not just flow rates that determine power. Otherwise, trick flows would always make more power than afr 165s.

AFM - Easy ET Street

use the arrows on the bottom of the link to navigate the different intake results. You will be pleasantly surprised, especially in the results from a very "street" intake's results on a blown renegade car.

There is a very clear winner here. Both Higher average power as well as one of the highest peak numbers of ALL intakes tested including the race intakes.
AFM - Easy ET Street

you will probably be interested to read this test with controlled numbers and 70 pulls, the hooker longtubes did not increase peak HP over any of the shorties out there.

AFM - Long & Shorty Of It

How many changes would you need for a T trim?

fox TB setup? HEHE. this would be an interesting "test"

Hi
Good info thanks...

I just have a hard time believing that the Cobra Intake and lower when polished and ported wouldn't be close to an out of the box intake.
I read that the lower is the real bottle neck?? Mine is already hogged out if extrude honed I would think if would outflow any of the intakes out of the box. I could be wrong if so please tell me!!

If I get the cobra extrude honed $800.00 a new larger TB would probably be part of it.

I would love to test this theory on the dyno...

T-trim..... thought about it, the inlet is a little larger. maybe I should take another look.

fox TB.... ?? don't know....

Anyway that is where I am coming from. Opinions???

Pops Fun · Nov 22, 2011

ProKiller said:
I agree with a bunch of the others Steve. I think swapping out that cobra intake will get you close if not there. if you match that with a 75mm fox style T/B, i think that will put you at the 600 you're looking for.

Using a 65mm TB now If I have the intake honed the inlet would accept a larger TB, does the Fox style flow better??
I am not trying to be argumentative just trying to understand.

Steve

revhead347 · Nov 22, 2011

The fox throttle body doesn't flow any better.

Take a look at the runner cross section of that Systemax again. They are huge. There is no amount of hogging that's going to get a Cobra up to that kind of runner volume.

Kurt

BlackVert · Nov 22, 2011

it may be that the fox design does not flow better, but:

with a fox setup, you can get a throttle body made by accufab which, for a given size, is reported to flow better than other throttle bodies of the same size.

BlackVert · Nov 22, 2011

Pops Fun said:
... I could be wrong if so please tell me!!...

you are ... sorry ... like kurt said, if you look at them side by side, you would be able to see it.

remember Tom Moss? i wonder if he will see this thread and drop some his wisdom on us.

http://tmossporting.0catch.com/

Pops Fun · Nov 22, 2011

Thanks for the input... Always ready to learn.

Here is an interesting article

ProKiller · Nov 23, 2011

if your going to spend $800 on a port job, you might as well start with a better intake and then do a mild port job on that one.

the fox vs. sn95 T/B discussion is a tough one. Mostly its based off the trickflow stage one kit (H/C/I) on a fox then on a sn95. the fox will have 10 more hp than the sn95. some of that could be tuning, some not. If you search for Paul's (killercanary) thread a while back when he switched to a fox style you can get some dyno data. And if Troy ever gets his install done we'll have even more data. Besides though, this is a blown vortech install, i think the fox will be better anyway. Look at that little stupid piece of plastic you have now and how angled and notched and twisted it is. you can't tell me that coming straight out the back of that blower then into a 90* bend isn't going to be better for airflow. It's a lot less turns.

That 65mm that you have may well be good and all with that cobra intake but if you get a systemax you will want bigger. and definitely get an accufab. I called up a bunch of places years back and asked for their flow numbers, accufab was more. same size, but flowed more. by like a good 50-100 cfm i think. i put it in a thread somewhere...

95snoozer · Nov 23, 2011

Pops Fun said:
Hi
Good info thanks...

I just have a hard time believing that the Cobra Intake and lower when polished and ported wouldn't be close to an out of the box intake.
I read that the lower is the real bottle neck?? Mine is already hogged out if extrude honed I would think if would outflow any of the intakes out of the box. I could be wrong if so please tell me!!
If I get the cobra extrude honed $800.00 a new larger TB would probably be part of it.

I would love to test this theory on the dyno...

T-trim..... thought about it, the inlet is a little larger. maybe I should take another look.

fox TB.... ?? don't know....

Anyway that is where I am coming from. Opinions???

Flow is just part of the story.

Runner length, cross sectional area, texture, transitions and average flow or the deviation between the runners. All of these play a roll. This is why some intake results will boggle your mind and why some intakes will be +10 n/A over another and even when blown.

Yes, you could hone extrude the cobra, but most have to cut shorten and weld the intake to get it where you want to be. The only reason to put that much trouble into a cobra intake is if you are in a class that only allows ford intakes or you have a Kenne bell blower.

Another factor is tuning caused by the differential in intakes. The cobra can have issues with this. Your tune is based off the overall flow from one side of the motor. This is a reading of the average A/f of the 4 cylinders. one of those cylinders can be a bit leaner than the others and vise verse. I know this is a stretch, but it is happening. if you look at that first chart posted, you will see how much more evenly the edelbrock intake flows. This is ever so important on an N/a build.

1. Get yourself a nice intake
2. consider the fox TB swap and then a T trim because the fox TB swap will then make it easy to run such a setup.

revhead347 · Nov 23, 2011

You don't have to cut an intake to extrude hone it, just if you want to port the upper.

That is a good point about the Cobra intake. The number 1 and 5 runners are signifigantly longer, which causes those cylinders to run leaner.

Kurt

Want 35 more hp

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