weird overheating issue

jerry S · Apr 29, 2006

My car was idling in front of my house for 5 minutes after returning home from a 2 mile trip to the gas station to inflate the tires when radiator coolant started steaming from under the hood like crazy. I turned the car off and popped the hood. I could not ascertain for sure where the leak originated but it might have been coming from where the filler neck is welded to the radiator (a Griffen universal radiator pn 26202). The engine temperature gauge has never really worked right. Sometimes it does not read while other times it does. When it does work, it seems to properly indicate hot and cold. I did not notice that the engine temp was overly hot when driving home from the gas station. It seemed normal.

About 35 mins after the event, the radiator had cooled down but the body of the Meziere electric water pump was hotter than a sumbitch. Also, I never noticed that the electric fan came on. It is wired to a switch that turns it on at 190 degrees. While the radiator was overflowing, it did not look like the fan was spinning. Should it have been?

Now this got me wondering a few things with which I hope you guys might be able to help me. First, why would my radiator steam up like that after only 5 minutes of sitting still? Could it be that the water pump was not pumping? If so, how do I check to see that the electric water pump is actually working? Could this be an alternator issue? While sitting at a red light, I noticed that my headlights dimmed while I was stopped and that they brightened up when I hit the accelerator. Could the electric water pump not be functioning when the car idles? Finally, should the body of the pump be that hot to the touch? As always, thanks for your advice and suggestions.

jS

D.Hearne · Apr 30, 2006

jerry S said:
My car was idling in front of my house for 5 minutes after returning home from a 2 mile trip to the gas station to inflate the tires when radiator coolant started steaming from under the hood like crazy. I turned the car off and popped the hood. I could not ascertain for sure where the leak originated but it might have been coming from where the filler neck is welded to the radiator (a Griffen universal radiator pn 26202). The engine temperature gauge has never really worked right. Sometimes it does not read while other times it does. When it does work, it seems to properly indicate hot and cold. I did not notice that the engine temp was overly hot when driving home from the gas station. It seemed normal.

About 35 mins after the event, the radiator had cooled down but the body of the Meziere electric water pump was hotter than a sumbitch. Also, I never noticed that the electric fan came on. It is wired to a switch that turns it on at 190 degrees. While the radiator was overflowing, it did not look like the fan was spinning. Should it have been?

Now this got me wondering a few things with which I hope you guys might be able to help me. First, why would my radiator steam up like that after only 5 minutes of sitting still? Could it be that the water pump was not pumping? If so, how do I check to see that the electric water pump is actually working? Could this be an alternator issue? While sitting at a red light, I noticed that my headlights dimmed while I was stopped and that they brightened up when I hit the accelerator. Could the electric water pump not be functioning when the car idles? Finally, should the body of the pump be that hot to the touch? As always, thanks for your advice and suggestions.

jS

I hope you're not planning long trips with an electric pump. They're not designed for extended street/highway use. Next, you may not have filled the cooling system all the way full. Air pockets will cause just what you've described. So will backwards installed head gaskets. Next, if you're relying on the factory Idiot gauge to read what the temp is , that's another no-no. These are notorious for unreliable readings. Next, you should have made sure the fans worked properly after installation, with the car sitting in the driveway idling, not out on the street. Sounds to me like you need to go back and start over and make sure everything's been installed correctly and with a quality temp gauge before taking it out on the street.

jerry S · Apr 30, 2006

D.Hearne said:
I hope you're not planning long trips with an electric pump. They're not designed for extended street/highway use. Next, you may not have filled the cooling system all the way full. Air pockets will cause just what you've described. So will backwards installed head gaskets. Next, if you're relying on the factory Idiot gauge to read what the temp is , that's another no-no. These are notorious for unreliable readings. Next, you should have made sure the fans worked properly after installation, with the car sitting in the driveway idling, not out on the street. Sounds to me like you need to go back and start over and make sure everything's been installed correctly and with a quality temp gauge before taking it out on the street.

The car is not a DD so no, there are no long trips planned. As for the radiator, I did not fill it. The shop that did the dyno tune and installed the intake and roller rocker arms did. I would have a hard time believing they did something wrong. If there are air pockets, how do you remove them?

As for head gaskets being installed backwards, I did not install the heads either. A shop in PA that worked on my car installed the heads. They might have done it backwards but that would be surprising as well. The fan had been working fine before. When I was driving the car home from the dyno tune and in slow traffic, I heard it come on. The car was idling in the street in front of my house so it was not that big a deal to get it back in the garage. And new instruments are on the way.

One thing I did notice was that when I picked the car up from the dyno shop, I was on my way back home when I realized I had forgotten something. I turned around and went back and left the car running while I went in. When I returned, I noticed that the car was spilling coolant (no catch can). the car had only gone a little ways before I returned to the shop. The first thing I will consider is air pockets. How do I check for them and how do I cure them?

If the head gaskets are on backwards, am I right in assuming that the only way to check is to pull the heads and check? This would of course entail buying new gaskets because you cannot reuse them, correct?

D.Hearne · Apr 30, 2006

Best way to insure there's no air pockets is to run it awhile with the radiator cap off and up to operating temp to let any air trapped out. You should see no coolant circulating in the radiator tank, until the T-stat opens. Once it opens, any air trapped should come out. You may need to rev it occasionally to help it some. Just becareful that you don't rev it so hard it pukes any hot coolant out on you. Backwards gaskets? If all else fails, and the engine still pukes coolant after running normally for awhile, about the only sure way to know will be to pull the heads. The front coolant ports between the block and heads should be blocked to avoid the coolant "shortcutting" it's way back to the intake. In this instance the rear of the block and heads run hotter than the front. The coolant needs to flow to the rear of the block, before working its way up to the heads and out the intake. With a Cleveland, backwards gaskets it easy to diagnose, the coolant passage from the heads to the block into the T-stat passage is completely blocked. The engien runs normally for a few minutes, then suddenly there's an eruption of steam when the coolant in the block flashes to steam and forces it's way backwards thru the waterpump. And lastly, yea, you're correct in that you cannot reuse head gaskets.

jerry S · Apr 30, 2006

D.Hearne said:
Best way to insure there's no air pockets is to run it awhile with the radiator cap off and up to operating temp to let any air trapped out. You should see no coolant circulating in the radiator tank, until the T-stat opens. Once it opens, any air trapped should come out. You may need to rev it occasionally to help it some. Just becareful that you don't rev it so hard it pukes any hot coolant out on you. Backwards gaskets? If all else fails, and the engine still pukes coolant after running normally for awhile, about the only sure way to know will be to pull the heads. The front coolant ports between the block and heads should be blocked to avoid the coolant "shortcutting" it's way back to the intake. In this instance the rear of the block and heads run hotter than the front. The coolant needs to flow to the rear of the block, before working its way up to the heads and out the intake.

Excellent info. I appreciate the suggestions very much. I will try and burb the radiator and see what happens.

:SNSign:

jerry S · Apr 30, 2006

preliminary findings

I pulled the car out and parked it nose first up the driveway (which is on a pretty steep grade). I pulled the radiator cap and filled the radiator with fluid (We have this stuff here in Euroland that you don't mix with water, you just dump it in). I waited and waited for a burp but it never came. I put my hand on the radiator and it started to feel quite hot after just 5 minutes of idling. I put the cap on and noticed that the radiator was starting to boil over. I also noticed that the fan was not running. This got me thinking that the switch might not be working. I poked around until I found the relay and pulled the fuse. It was shot. I replaced with a new fuse and put the key in the ignition and turned on the system. The fan started right up. Within no time, the radiator was cool to the touch. Problem solved.

What I am beginning to wonder is if my radiator is not just a tad too small for my engine. I am at over 400 hp with 10.5 CR and .060 over. My engine seems born to run hot. I have a Griffin dual-row alum rad with 1 inch tubes and a single flex-a-lite puller fan. I think maybe I should upgrade to the same radiator but with 1.25 inch tubes or more. I saw on the griffin web site that any of their radiators can also come with 1.5 inch tubes. That should be more than enough to keep me cool.

As for my electric water pump, these are good for 2000 hours of use before they crap out. I am going to order spare electric motors to keep in the trunk for both the fan and the water pump in the event of an emergency. I will be conservative and send the Meziere in for a rebuild after 1500 hours, which should be in about 7 years given my current rate of use.

fvike · Apr 30, 2006

jerry S said:
What I am beginning to wonder is if my radiator is not just a tad too small for my engine. I am at over 400 hp with 10.5 CR and .060 over. My engine seems born to run hot. I have a Griffin dual-row alum rad with 1 inch tubes and a single flex-a-lite puller fan. I think maybe I should upgrade to the same radiator but with 1.25 inch tubes or more. I saw on the griffin web site that any of their radiators can also come with 1.5 inch tubes. That should be more than enough to keep me cool.

My engine is around the 400 hp mark too, but I have the stock radiator. No problems with overheating. But I do use the stock fan too, plus a electric one for hot days/hard driving. So I doubt the radiator is the problem. Also, Windsors have an excelent cooling system, and should not overheat that easily. That leaves the head gaskets and water pump. Maybe you should install a water pressure guage, just to be sure ? It might be nice to have the day it does crap out for real.

hhead · Apr 30, 2006

you have a couple of issues.
first, the leak at the neck is most likely NOT a bad weld, but a cap that is losing pressure causing a overheat.
second, the electric pump is taxing your electrical system. if you are running any kind of stereo, amps, lights, etc. w/o upgrading your 60 amp alt. than you're asking for trouble. I think that alt only puts out 40amps at idle. if you're lucky.
your switch needs to go to a relay, unless it's a heavy duty one, not a cheap plastic one!

jerry S · Apr 30, 2006

fvike said:
My engine is around the 400 hp mark too, but I have the stock radiator. No problems with overheating. But I do use the stock fan too, plus a electric one for hot days/hard driving. So I doubt the radiator is the problem. Also, Windsors have an excelent cooling system, and should not overheat that easily. That leaves the head gaskets and water pump. Maybe you should install a water pressure guage, just to be sure ? It might be nice to have the day it does crap out for real.

Hi Frode. Nice to hear from you. Like I said, the issue seems to have been that the fan was not working. I have to investigate why the fuse blew in the first place. If the head gaskets were installed bass-ackwards, would a water pressure gauge indicate a higher than normal pressure?

jerry S · Apr 30, 2006

hhead said:
you have a couple of issues.
first, the leak at the neck is most likely NOT a bad weld, but a cap that is losing pressure causing a overheat.
second, the electric pump is taxing your electrical system. if you are running any kind of stereo, amps, lights, etc. w/o upgrading your 60 amp alt. than you're asking for trouble. I think that alt only puts out 40amps at idle. if you're lucky.
your switch needs to go to a relay, unless it's a heavy duty one, not a cheap plastic one!

I would be really bummed if my cap is bad. It is a griffin polished radiator cap. I think the switch is on a Flex-a-lite adjustable electric fan control. It has this copper radiator probe that wedges into the radiator. The probe is hooked up to a switch that activates the fan on and off at pre-determined temps. AS for the alt, I am running the following accessories

electric water pump
electric fuel pump
electric fan

but no kicking stereo yet.

I called to PA Performance when I thought I might need a larger alt and told the guy on the phone what I was running and asked whether I needed a larger alt. To my great surprise, he said most likely not, that the one I had on there was prolly just about enough for my needs. "That could change," he cautioned, "should you ever get a big stereo in there." I figured that I would upgrade when I got the nicer stereo but when I noticed my lights dimming while idling, I began to question that advice.

In the mean time, I have a buddy here who sold his stang before he could install his 200 amp large case alternator on his car so he just gave the alt to me. I am unsure whether a large case alt will fit my car because I have a small case in there and a march serp kit set up for the small case alt but I can give it a shot

D.Hearne · Apr 30, 2006

With the stock alternator on my 89 Ranger, it's overly taxed if you run the radiator fans, heater/AC fan, headlights, fuel pump, etc. It too will draw down at idle, causing the engine to miss fire, but at higher, highway rpms, it will just keep pace, barely. I think you'd be better off with an engine driven waterpump, preferably a high volume pump for street use. If you were racing it primarily, then a low volume-high performance pump would do you. The radiator in it is a Griffin 15.5 x 17 inch aluminum unit with two rows of 1" tubes (not sure there, it's been awhile since I looked at it) It does fine with the current 275-300 horse 5.0, but it was marginal with the 331-sixpack motor and the weather we get here in summer--- 95 degree days with near 100% humidity.

fvike · May 1, 2006

jerry S said:
Hi Frode. Nice to hear from you. Like I said, the issue seems to have been that the fan was not working. I have to investigate why the fuse blew in the first place. If the head gaskets were installed bass-ackwards, would a water pressure gauge indicate a higher than normal pressure?

I was thinking the opposite. If the water pump craps out, you would loose pressure. Actually, I had the same problem last year with my electric fan, it was eating fuses. Turns out, I had switched two wires on the relay when I replaced it. Now it works like a charm, and at higher speeds than before. I had a friend who's an car electic have a look at it for me, since I'm clueless with electrics. Here's what he did; Just take of the ground terminal of your battery and put it back on slowly. If you se a spark when It's close, you've got a problem. (Is anything draining your battery?) Also listen to hear if the fan relay is clicking. Then you've located the problem.

hhead · May 2, 2006

jerry S said:
I would be really bummed if my cap is bad. It is a griffin polished radiator cap. I think the switch is on a Flex-a-lite adjustable electric fan control. It has this copper radiator probe that wedges into the radiator. The probe is hooked up to a switch that activates the fan on and off at pre-determined temps. AS for the alt, I am running the following accessories

electric water pump
electric fuel pump
electric fan

but no kicking stereo yet.

I called to PA Performance when I thought I might need a larger alt and told the guy on the phone what I was running and asked whether I needed a larger alt. To my great surprise, he said most likely not, that the one I had on there was prolly just about enough for my needs. "That could change," he cautioned, "should you ever get a big stereo in there." I figured that I would upgrade when I got the nicer stereo but when I noticed my lights dimming while idling, I began to question that advice.

In the mean time, I have a buddy here who sold his stang before he could install his 200 amp large case alternator on his car so he just gave the alt to me. I am unsure whether a large case alt will fit my car because I have a small case in there and a march serp kit set up for the small case alt but I can give it a shot

yeah, i had the electrode rust inhibitor? cap for my griffin. it lasted about one month before i started having overheating problems. get a $4cap at the local auto parts and be done with it. this one has been on for four years now. your alt is taxed. electric fan takes a min of 30amps at peak draw on high speed. that plus fuel pump, plus headlights, get the picture.

jerry S · May 2, 2006

hhead said:
yeah, i had the electrode rust inhibitor? cap for my griffin. it lasted about one month before i started having overheating problems. get a $4cap at the local auto parts and be done with it. this one has been on for four years now. your alt is taxed. electric fan takes a min of 30amps at peak draw on high speed. that plus fuel pump, plus headlights, get the picture.

I ordered a new PA-Performance 150 amp alt last night. I think I am also going to upgrade the radiator. I have a new 24x19 alum radiator with 1 inch tubes in there now but the schumck who built my car put the wrong radiator in there. Griffin now has is a 24 x19 radiator with 1.5 inch tubes that should allow for greater cooling. My current radiator has the inlet and outlet on the wrong sides anyway. I cannot see my timing pointer and the inlet hose to the radiator gets in the way of the alternator.

I am also ordering Meziere WP150B and a replacement fan motor for the flex-a-lite to keep in the trunk in the event the electric motors ever die out on me while I am miles from no where.

jbuening · May 2, 2006

Just a few comments based on my experience. I'm running a 19"x28" Northern aluminum radiator (1.5" two row i think) and if i fill the radiator it will puke for 10 minutes. The actual operating volume is about two-three inches below the cap. Filled any higher than that and it will puke coolant even at normal temp. Running the motor with the cap off won't result in a noticeable burp, but if there is air in the system you won't notice when it escapes. Also, are you sure the coolant was coming from a bad weld in the filler neck or was it the overflow fitting? There should be a threaded hole in the filler neck just below the cap that you probably have a hose hooked up to. If you have the battery in the trunk, you can use the 28" radiator and the stock saddle mounts hold it in place nicely.

I also notice that you have a 69 mach, so you should have a factory console in there. If you like the style, get a $25 shelby console gauge insert to replace the front ashtray. Then get a mechanical Autometer temperature gauge and hook it up. I even went as far as installing a mechanical Autometer oil pressure gauge in the second hole so there is no guesswork on what is happening with my engine. You've got too much money in that motor to rely on a 36yr old gauge.

Good tip on the alternator too! Good luck.

jerry S · May 2, 2006

jbuening said:
Just a few comments based on my experience. I'm running a 19"x28" Northern aluminum radiator (1.5" two row i think) and if i fill the radiator it will puke for 10 minutes. The actual operating volume is about two-three inches below the cap. Filled any higher than that and it will puke coolant even at normal temp. Running the motor with the cap off won't result in a noticeable burp, but if there is air in the system you won't notice when it escapes. Also, are you sure the coolant was coming from a bad weld in the filler neck or was it the overflow fitting?

I also notice that you have a 69 mach, so you should have a factory console in there. If you like the style, get a $25 shelby console gauge insert to replace the front ashtray. Then get a mechanical Autometer temperature gauge and hook it up. I even went as far as installing a mechanical Autometer oil pressure gauge in the second hole so there is no guesswork on what is happening with my engine. You've got too much money in that motor to rely on a 36yr old gauge.

Good tip on the alternator too! Good luck.

It looked like a bad weld but it was just fluid leaking from the radiator cap and pooling along the weld. The vibrations from the engine made it look like the fluid was bubbling up from the weld. As for the instrumentation, I recently ordered a Year One 6 instrument console and will be ordering 6 autometer gauges once I decide between Lunar and Ultra Lites:

5 inch speedo
5 inch tach
2 inch oil pressure
2 inch engine temp
2 inch volt
2 inch fuel level

I guess I could relocate the battery to the rear and get an even bigger radiator in there. But I think that a 24x19 with 1.5 inch tubes and an electric fan will do the job. All my problems stemmed from the fact that the fuse on my electric fan was blown. Once I replaced the fuse, the engine was running ok. Being located in Northern Europe, it never really gets that hot. Hell, it was 32 degress this morning with a high of 66 today. It is like we are in a heat wave. If I were to move to Spain or Italy, then that situation could change.

66HertzClone · May 2, 2006

You can use the temp sender to bleed the air pockets that may be trapped in the engine. Engine off, loosened the switch a few turns, watch for coolant to creep up the threads of the sender. I did this on mine a found I had to add additional coolant.

Next time I had the thermostat out, I drilled a 1/8 hole at the edge of the flange. I made sure this hole was at 12:00 o'clock position when I put it back together.

hhead · May 13, 2006

jerry S said:
It looked like a bad weld but it was just fluid leaking from the radiator cap and pooling along the weld. The vibrations from the engine made it look like the fluid was bubbling up from the weld. As for the instrumentation, I recently ordered a Year One 6 instrument console and will be ordering 6 autometer gauges once I decide between Lunar and Ultra Lites:

5 inch speedo

5 inch tach

2 inch oil pressure

2 inch engine temp

2 inch volt

2 inch fuel level

I guess I could relocate the battery to the rear and get an even bigger radiator in there. But I think that a 24x19 with 1.5 inch tubes and an electric fan will do the job. All my problems stemmed from the fact that the fuse on my electric fan was blown. Once I replaced the fuse, the engine was running ok. Being located in Northern Europe, it never really gets that hot. Hell, it was 32 degress this morning with a high of 66 today. It is like we are in a heat wave. If I were to move to Spain or Italy, then that situation could change.

I'm glad that it was the cap. are you still overheating? If you are just overheating at idle, or stop and go. than your problem would not be size of radiator. rather coolant flow thru your radiator. too fast thru radiator not allowing radiator to do it's job. or airflow thru the radiator, not enough or blocked air flow. how much cfm's are your fans putting out? A 2 core alum is better than a four core copper rad. So I would save my money on the new radiator. I mean, if a four core can't cool you, a bigger one isn't going to work.
The lack of current, to power your accessories might also be your problem, with not enough current to power your fans at FULL speed. after the powermaster upgrade let us know.

jerry S · May 14, 2006

hhead said:
I'm glad that it was the cap. are you still overheating? If you are just overheating at idle, or stop and go. than your problem would not be size of radiator. rather coolant flow thru your radiator. too fast thru radiator not allowing radiator to do it's job. or airflow thru the radiator, not enough or blocked air flow. how much cfm's are your fans putting out?

I start to overheat at idle. I think my 1250 cfm puller fan is not up to the job. After I install the autometers and see what my actual temps really are, I will move up to a bigger fan first and then maybe a 1.25 inch core radiator second if the problem is not fixed.

hhead · May 15, 2006

you did change the cap right?

weird overheating issue

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