What Do You Carry And Why?

[joshw0000]

Which in this case would be a very good argument against you from "self defense" to "homicide". You've neutralized the threat and if you've got time to go back to grab a 45 or any other weapon for that matter you're showing a level of malice that goes beyond that of "self defense".

To go along with the quote as well, Have you ever participated in a timed 3-gun shoot? Trying to switch weapons when under pressure and adrenaline is flowing is no easy task. Hell I'd be surprised if I could change a magazine out when "under the gun" persay.

In addition to that there should be no reason to "follow up" with anything. This goes without saying no matter the situation: home defense, medicine, sports, relationships, you name it. I switched to bow-hunting over rifle not only because its more challenging but because every deer I've ever shot with a rifle (30-06, .300 win mag, 7mm, .50 muzzle...you name it) has run at a minimum of 50 yards even when double-lunged. The furthest I've had a bow-deer run is...well...two steps. I'm not going to have the doctor give me an antibiotic just so he can "follow up" with getting that appendix out later. I'm not going to replace all the rod bearings just so I can "follow up" with getting that crankshaft turned the second time. I'm not going to tell durden he's got a pretty mouth just to "follow up" with lisa later. (cause lets be honest here lisa is the better catch of the two).

My point being you do something with a purpose. If a pocket gun is that purpose (which is great!) then I'd much rather trust my 380 auto over some 00 shot in a .410. F=ma. No matter what shot size you use it's going to be lighter and less directed than a bore-weapon. I'm not going to take a chance with where that shot can go, I want to KNOW.

In lieu of this thread I guess I'll contribute. Please ignore the awesome love-handles I'm rocking.

View attachment 111907

M&P Shield, .40 with the extended magazine. Fits in the Crossbreed supertuck quite nicely and this is a setup I can wear very comfortably in all conditions.


This is also typically the style of target that I shoot at:



The plates I use are typically smaller than the "average" center of mass that you would see. It's a simple audible feedback on whether I hit the target or not. Of course I'm concerned with accuracy but in the end, if i shoot a 3" group vs a 5" group at 7-10 yards it's a dead bad-guy.

Also one thing I've been practicing lately, While I'm making supper I'll take the mag out, empty the chamber, TRIPLE CHECK that there's nothing in the gun and practice my draw/squeeze at a wall while I'm waiting for food to cook. Great way to practice the draw and fire mechanism so you don't fumble around when the time comes.

I think you misunderstood. A Judge is a gun capable of firing 410 & 45. So the first round is 410 Hornady, followed by 45 rounds. The first round incapacitates him while I figure out if it's a teenager or a real threat. OR I would squeeze the trigger 2 or 3 times instinctively and kill him immediately. There's no telling how I'd react if I shot someone as I've never pointed a gun at somewhile while fearing for my life. Most likely I would shoot several times. Either way, for home defense (the whole point of my argument), I think the Judge is a good choice.

I also have a Shield 40 that I carry when I'm not using my 380. The 380 fits comfortably in my pocket so I can carry at times that I normally wouldn't be able to (lunch breaks, right after work, etc). I can't carry at work and I work very closely with other people so at some point a concealed gun would be noticed if I tried to carry all the time.

I have a Ozark IWB holster that I use for my Shield. It's just more comfortable to pocket carry a 380.

After the range:



I no longer have the Sigma 40. I value my families life and with that gun I had a better chance of throwing it at an attacker than hitting them with a bullet.

 

[jlangholzj]

The only judge I was aware of only shot .410 rounds or that's how I understood it, forgive my ignorance on that matter.

I think you misunderstood. A Judge is a gun capable of firing 410 & 45. So the first round is 410 Hornady, followed by 45 rounds. The first round incapacitates him while I figure out if it's a teenager or a real threat. OR I would squeeze the trigger 2 or 3 times instinctively and kill him immediately.

However there is no OR situation. The moment that I pull that gun I am committed to using deadly force on whatever object I am pointing it at and the moment I pull that trigger there is no "wait and see" because at that point I've committed to incapacitating whatever I previously had my weapon pointed at.

I hear a bump in the night and the gun comes out, as soon as I'm fixed on the target I make the decision. Is he a scrawny kid? If so well then you probably just made him himself and that's punishment enough. Once he flees (assuming he does) make sure your living area is safe and continue from there. Is he someone with a bat/iron/gun? If so he's getting shot. End of story. Also if you're "checking to see if its a teenager" how do you know that it wasn't one of your own family members? There should be no "checking" to see what it is. Like I said, once you pull the trigger, whether its a .45ACP or 22LR you're committed to incapacitating the target. Otherwise you're acting foolish and quite frankly dangerously.

 

[jlangholzj]

I'll also make an amendment to that reply, My question is, if the gun is also chambered in .45 then what's the benefit of having the .410 round? I don't think there's much of an argument there that the .45 has more stopping power than the .410 round no?

So then what's the purpose of the .410 round? To scare someone off?? An initial .45 would do that just as well as a .410 would, probably better since it's got more "bang". So then, is it there so people can shoot first and then when they realize, "oh chit" they didn't mortally injure something they didn't want to shoot at?

The whole thing seems a bit silly to me.

 

[joshw0000]

I'll also make an amendment to that reply, My question is, if the gun is also chambered in .45 then what's the benefit of having the .410 round? I don't think there's much of an argument there that the .45 has more stopping power than the .410 round no?

So then what's the purpose of the .410 round? To scare someone off?? An initial .45 would do that just as well as a .410 would, probably better since it's got more "bang". So then, is it there so people can shoot first and then when they realize, "oh chit" they didn't mortally injure something they didn't want to shoot at?

The whole thing seems a bit silly to me.

Have you ever shot anyone in fear of your life? Do you think you can put a 40 or 45 in a vital organ when your adrenaline is higher than it's ever been before? Know why most ranges won't let you draw and shoot? Because people panic and misfire!

410 Hornady round puts out 3 deadly slugs. At close range, that'll put 3 deadly holes in vital organs. How much damage did that 40 round do to his foot or in the floor?

People focus so much on the caliber and seem to think they've all had years of military combat training (if you have, hats off brother, thanks for the service). I haven't. I believe 3 slugs from a 410 will do just as much damage or more as a 40 or 45 with a greater chance of putting a slug in a vital organ to stop a would be attacker. Once they're incapacitated, you've got a gun full of 45 rounds to do as you please. Or a gun full of 410's to keep spraying 3 slug rounds at them.

Either way, you say you know how you'll react, but you don't. At least 75% of us will never have to find out. If I find out, I want to know that the gun I'm using will do what I want it to do.

Again, nothing against that nice $500 Shield. I love mine and keep her full of JHP's. But for home defense, I seriously want to buy a Judge.

 

[jlangholzj]

People focus so much on the caliber and seem to think they've all had years of military combat training (if you have, hats off brother, thanks for the service). I haven't. I believe 3 slugs from a 410 will do just as much damage or more as a 40 or 45 with a greater chance of putting a slug in a vital organ to stop a would be attacker. Once they're incapacitated, you've got a gun full of 45 rounds to do as you please. Or a gun full of 410's to keep spraying 3 slug rounds at them.

I have not, nor do I have extensive training in the matter, however I have had some serious range-time with someone who has. I had the pleasure of playing range duty with some gentleman who have seen several tours of combat experience and I was told the first few rounds are not necessarily meant as a kill shot but rather as a deterrent. The flash/bang you're going to see is the "oh " that will likely turn someone around. Doesn't matter if its in the floor or their foot or what-have you because 90% of the time they'll pause. Even just that split second counts. The 2nd and thrid shot where you're finally at full draw and have a solid bead oh the guy will be the ones that often do the trick.

Also I'm not so sure you quite have a handle on shot patterns if you're using "in the floor or in his foot" as a reason to shoot a .410 round vs a regular pistol. Just because you're using shot instead of a slug doesn't mean that the pattern magically spreads to where you want it. If the round would have went into his leg or the ground with a .45 there's no way in hell or high water that it would magically appear in his chest if you would have used shot. I'm assuming that since it shoots slugs as well, that it would behave much like an open-choke shotgun. The pattern really doesn't open up until you get 20 yards or so away from your target, up until then the five inch pie plate that I'm going to hit with a slug is the same area of target that I'd hit with shot. Now if the grouping is any wider than that it would be an even better reason not to use it because you don't know where that shot is going to go. Maybe 1 missed, one skimmed his upper arm and the other hit his belt buckle.....

So again, what is the advantage then? Your target window doesn't magically change now that you have shot instead of a slug, its going to go where you point it no matter the caliber. Or in a worse-case scenario the shot pattern is so bit and erratic that you don't know where it's going to hit. I'm not trying to be an arsehole here or anything I'm just genuinely trying to find an advantage to a shot shell vs a cartridge.

 

[joshw0000]

I have not, nor do I have extensive training in the matter, however I have had some serious range-time with someone who has. I had the pleasure of playing range duty with some gentleman who have seen several tours of combat experience and I was told the first few rounds are not necessarily meant as a kill shot but rather as a deterrent. The flash/bang you're going to see is the "oh ****" that will likely turn someone around. Doesn't matter if its in the floor or their foot or what-have you because 90% of the time they'll pause. Even just that split second counts. The 2nd and thrid shot where you're finally at full draw and have a solid bead oh the guy will be the ones that often do the trick.

Also I'm not so sure you quite have a handle on shot patterns if you're using "in the floor or in his foot" as a reason to shoot a .410 round vs a regular pistol. Just because you're using shot instead of a slug doesn't mean that the pattern magically spreads to where you want it. If the round would have went into his leg or the ground with a .45 there's no way in hell or high water that it would magically appear in his chest if you would have used shot. I'm assuming that since it shoots slugs as well, that it would behave much like an open-choke shotgun. The pattern really doesn't open up until you get 20 yards or so away from your target, up until then the five inch pie plate that I'm going to hit with a slug is the same area of target that I'd hit with shot. Now if the grouping is any wider than that it would be an even better reason not to use it because you don't know where that shot is going to go. Maybe 1 missed, one skimmed his upper arm and the other hit his belt buckle.....

So again, what is the advantage then? Your target window doesn't magically change now that you have shot instead of a slug, its going to go where you point it no matter the caliber. Or in a worse-case scenario the shot pattern is so bit and erratic that you don't know where it's going to hit. I'm not trying to be an arsehole here or anything I'm just genuinely trying to find an advantage to a shot shell vs a cartridge.

I think you pointed out the advantage for me. The first shot is not the kill shot. If the first shot is going to be towards his leg instead of the chest, then 3 balls within a couple inches of each other has a much better chance of hitting the leg than 1. Do you disagree?

If those same 3 balls are flying at his face or chest, you still have a better chance of hitting a vital organ instead of one. Unless you live in a mansion, the shot will be within close enough range that those 3 balls will be within a couple inches of one another.

Again, you agreed with everything I've been stating. The first shot is the "oh " shot. So now you have a better chance of your opponent being dead or hit as opposed to dead, hit, or missed. You're a fraction of a second away from a 2nd trigger pull which can spit out 3 more balls or a 45, your choice. Again, I would never consider CC a Judge, just for a bedside gun.

 

[jlangholzj]

You have just as much of a chance that all three projectiles would miss as well.

Again, I would never consider CC a Judge, just for a bedside gun.

I'm also at a loss at the difference between a "beside gun" and a "CCW". They both serve the same purpose. They both would be used in the same situation. The only difference is that you're now in your bedroom and would most likely travel to another room.

Also if you're going to use a "bedside gun" and are claiming that "more pellets means dead badguy" then whynot get a coach gun? a 12gauge 00 chot shell contains on average 12 pellets. 4 times the chance of the .410 round. In addition to that IIRC the .410 typically has ~13-14gr of powder vs the standard 12gauge having 45+gr. It would take me a bit to look up what common values are but it's somewhere in that ballpark. So you've got 4x the shot and 3x the powder now. If you're not worried about concealing wouldn't that be the better choice?

 

[joshw0000]

You have just as much of a chance that all three projectiles would miss as well.



I'm also at a loss at the difference between a "beside gun" and a "CCW". They both serve the same purpose. They both would be used in the same situation. The only difference is that you're now in your bedroom and would most likely travel to another room.

Also if you're going to use a "bedside gun" and are claiming that "more pellets means dead badguy" then whynot get a coach gun? a 12gauge 00 chot shell contains on average 12 pellets. 4 times the chance of the .410 round. In addition to that IIRC the .410 typically has ~13-14gr of powder vs the standard 12gauge having 45+gr. It would take me a bit to look up what common values are but it's somewhere in that ballpark. So you've got 4x the shot and 3x the powder now. If you're not worried about concealing wouldn't that be the better choice?

If we're talking shotguns, that's a different conversation. We're talking about pistols. Let's stay on track.

And a bedside gun and a CCW are not used the same. A CCW is drawn from a concealed place on your body. A bedside gun is drawn from....ok, I'm not even going to explain. Draw it from your couch, behind a picture, hell put it in a ziplock bag in the back of your toilet. Sleep with that Shield on your back if you'd like but I get a little frisky at night and don't think the wife would like 2 barrels in bed.

I'll do the research for you: http://m.hornady.com/store/410-Critical-Defense-Ammo/

This is getting a little ridiculous. Think what you'd like. If you don't think a Judge would work for you, that's fine. I'm bored with this conversation.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

 

[jlangholzj]

If we're talking shotguns, that's a different conversation. We're talking about pistols. Let's stay on track.

And a bedside gun and a CCW are not used the same. A CCW is drawn from a concealed place on your body. A bedside gun is drawn from....ok, I'm not even going to explain. Draw it from your couch, behind a picture, hell put it in a ziplock bag in the back of your toilet. Sleep with that Shield on your back if you'd like but I get a little frisky at night and don't think the wife would like 2 barrels in bed.

I'll do the research for you: http://m.hornady.com/store/410-Critical-Defense-Ammo/

This is getting a little ridiculous. Think what you'd like. If you don't think a Judge would work for you, that's fine. I'm bored with this conversation.

You don't need to explain to me what/where/how you'd put it. What good is a gun hidden in a couch 2 rooms away? What if the attacker is between your bedroom and the toilet, what then? Also implying that I've got a gun strapped to me in bed is purely asinine despite you trying to be cheeky about it. I wear my gun all day, go to work and keep it in the car (since like you I'm not allowed to carry at work). It stays on me until I undress at night at which point it sits on my nightstand.

Actually the thread title is "what do you carry and why". You're the one that's bringing up the "bedside gun" and "home defense" aspect of it. I've not said one way or another that it will or will not work for me or anyone else. Heck I've shot a judge before and they're actually a pretty nice gun. I'm simply asking you to defend your position on what would make it the ideal "bedside" gun. I'm looking at this objectively and trying to come up with what is the ideal solution given your points made. If your tired of trying to have a civil conversation and exchange points on the *why* aspect after being challenged, that's not my problem. Simply don't reply, no skin off my bones.

 

[jlangholzj]

Go away you....who left your cupboard door open.

 

[joshw0000]

You don't need to explain to me what/where/how you'd put it. What good is a gun hidden in a couch 2 rooms away? What if the attacker is between your bedroom and the toilet, what then? Also implying that I've got a gun strapped to me in bed is purely asinine despite you trying to be cheeky about it. I wear my gun all day, go to work and keep it in the car (since like you I'm not allowed to carry at work). It stays on me until I undress at night at which point it sits on my nightstand.

Actually the thread title is "what do you carry and why". You're the one that's bringing up the "bedside gun" and "home defense" aspect of it. I've not said one way or another that it will or will not work for me or anyone else. Heck I've shot a judge before and they're actually a pretty nice gun. I'm simply asking you to defend your position on what would make it the ideal "bedside" gun. I'm looking at this objectively and trying to come up with what is the ideal solution given your points made. If your tired of trying to have a civil conversation and exchange points on the *why* aspect after being challenged, that's not my problem. Simply don't reply, no skin off my bones.

If you read through my conversation with you and Durden you'll see plenty of valid points. Instead you're knit picking reasons that have nothing to do with a bedside gun.

I'll be happy to converse more about a CC gun but I'm getting tired of the Judge conversation.

 

[D Durden]

Which in this case would be a very good argument against you from "self defense" to "homicide". You've neutralized the threat and if you've got time to go back to grab a 45 or any other weapon for that matter you're showing a level of malice that goes beyond that of "self defense".

In his defense, I THINK what he means is load the first shot of the Judge up with a .410 SD round as either a warning or "initiating" round and then load subsequent chambers with .45 LC rounds . . . which the Judge fires just fine, too.

I'm not going to tell durden he's got a pretty mouth just to "follow up" with lisa later. (cause lets be honest here lisa is the better catch of the two).

We're a package deal, baby, and I'm easier and cheaper . . . and when I'm "done", I go to sleep . . . she shops online.

Just saying.

In lieu of this thread I guess I'll contribute. Please ignore the awesome love-handles I'm rocking.

View attachment 111889

Yeah, but can you bend over and touch your toes in that rig? Pics with a penny or it didn't happen.

 

[jlangholzj]

In his defense, I THINK what he means is load the first shot of the Judge up with a .410 SD round as either a warning or "initiating" round and then load subsequent chambers with .45 LC rounds . . . which the Judge fires just fine, too.

correct, this was prior to my understanding that the judge was chambered in both.

We're a package deal, baby, and I'm easier and cheaper . . . and when I'm "done", I go to sleep . . . she shops online.

Just saying.

Yeah, but can you bend over and touch your toes in that rig? Pics with a penny or it didn't happen.

Do I have to wear heels this time??

In all seriousness I make a habit of squatting to not show an imprint. My hips are bony as chit so carrying on the side is not near as comfortable for me. Additionally I get less of an imprint carrying in that location than I do on the side. Additionally I've got the flexibility right now to draw that way, and its comfortable. My dad on the otherhand uses the spandex chest holster. He wears button downs every day anyway but its easier for him to draw.

 

[D Durden]

Okay, after reading some more of the conversation, here's my long and short of it.

1. I train draw and shoot . . . and shoot . . . and shoot. I'm decent. In my first USPSA "run and gun" competition, I scored in the top half of competition shooters. The best thing about the competition was that I recovered from a magazine failure. And just for giggles, I competed with a gun I'd never shot. GRANTED, it was a Glock i.e. perfect, so that wasn't much of a leap.

2. I'd NEVER fire as a warning for lots of reasons. A warning shot is a round that DID NOT protect me. A warning shot is an extra chance for my weapon to fail, my ammunition could fail, and depending upon the environment, the discharge could blind and/or deafen me. A warning shot confirms to the bad guy that this IS a life and death self-defense situation going BOTH WAYS . . . without putting the bad guy in danger. While my first shot may be a warning, HIS first shot won't be. And the main reason I'd never fire a warning shot is simply, eh, if I have to fire my weapon, it's already bad enough to take a life. I can't think of a situation where I'd fire a warning shot to scare someone or to announce my intentions. I've looked down a barrel a couple of times, and I never wondered about the bearer's intentions. They're serious. My weapon with my finger on the trigger should be plenty of warning.

3. In a high stress situation, fingers turn to flippers. The more one believes they need a firearm for self-protection, the more they should train. If I had little confidence that I wouldn't shoot the floor or the ceiling upon drawing my weapon, I'd increase/improve my training till I had done the best to prove to myself I could draw and fire under stress. Judge or not, shooting the floor or the ceiling is generally a miss.

4. I stack the deck COMPLETELY in my favor. I want the best firearm I can carry. I want as much experience shooting AND CLEARING that weapon. I want it in an easy to use rig. I'd prefer to have spare ammo for it easily carried, too. I want good sights and GREAT ammo that's been tested and proven. I want EVERY POSSIBLE ADVANTAGE I can get within the restrictions of real life. Gun fights are chaotic enough to leave much of anything to chance. I hate that I'm in a conceal only state, now, BUT, on the bright side, unlike Tennessee, the permit here covers alternative weapons so I'm trading the ability to carry a nice gun openly for carrying a decent gun concealed along with a great blade. Again, I want to stack the deck with whatever cards I'm dealt.

 

[D Durden]

Do I have to wear heels this time??

Eh, I'll flip you for the heels . . . I've dropped about 10 pounds so they don't hurt as much as they used to.

In all seriousness I make a habit of squatting to not show an imprint.

Comically, I'm built to carry concealed . . . it's like one of the few advantages of being in my shape. I have a great Concealco rig that will hid a full sized Wilson 1911 under shorts and a t-shirt. I haven't carried that combo in years, but I used to all the time. I HAVE dropped some weight since then, though. I may have to go check it out for old time's sake.

Bony hips WOULD make it tougher. That's a nice rig for your situation, though, and I hear the M&P series is pretty ginchy.

 

[jlangholzj]

....I'd NEVER fire as a warning for lots of reasons.....Gun fights are chaotic enough to leave much of anything to chance

I believe that you and I are on the same page here but I wanted to clarify a point I made earlier i guess, so to not get...construed.

I, as well as you, appreciate the gravity of the situation. As well as the necessity to practice repeatedly and know your gear. The point i was making was that out of all the rounds you'll fire should the need arise, #1 often has the highest probability to miss, for the reasons you outlined above. If I were in a situation my first reaction to being shot at though is stop and turn for cover, as would most people. That was the point I was trying to bring up.

Also, just got me a cheap-ass AR for 3-gun. Now I just need to pick up an 870 and hopefully this next year or so I'll be running those as well

 

[jlangholzj]

Eh, I'll flip you for the heels . . . I've dropped about 10 pounds so they don't hurt as much as they used to.

Comically, I'm built to carry concealed . . . it's like one of the few advantages of being in my shape. I have a great Concealco rig that will hid a full sized Wilson 1911 under shorts and a t-shirt. I haven't carried that combo in years, but I used to all the time. I HAVE dropped some weight since then, though. I may have to go check it out for old time's sake.

Bony hips WOULD make it tougher. That's a nice rig for your situation, though, and I hear the M&P series is pretty ginchy.

It is very. I'm built wide, but not deep. (Unless its in your mother trebek...haa haa haaa). I'm a pretty big dood but I've also been blessed with what my father says : "I say, I SAY BOY you've got them chicken legs." No I didn't skip leg day, I just have scrawny legs. So from a side view it's harder to conceal, let alone the comfort level of it.

The one thing that really impresses me about the shield is how well its balanced. A full-frame or even a sub-frame 1911 has some heft to it and tracks very well. I initially expected that a composite gun that's less than 1" wide would have a fair bit of kick, which it does but man it falls back in nice. The fit in my hand is wonderful and after every round it settles right back into target. I have no problem firing one round every half second or so and maintaining my kill box.

 

[D Durden]

The point i was making was that out of all the rounds you'll fire should the need arise, #1 often has the highest probability to miss, for the reasons you outlined above.

Ironically, I don't have any data supporting or refuting that . . . and I have no idea why I don't. I may have to go digging.

If I were in a situation my first reaction to being shot at though is stop and turn for cover, as would most people. That was the point I was trying to bring up.

I think it depends on if you KNOW you're shot or not. Lots of people utterly freak out when shot, but some don't even realize it till afterwards. Most likely it depends on if you know you've been shot and where you've been shot.

Also, just got me a cheap-ass AR for 3-gun. Now I just need to pick up an 870 and hopefully this next year or so I'll be running those as well

NICE! I want to try that, but the friggin' ammo costs eat into my wallet. I can handle the handgun rounds fine, and the rifle rounds aren't THAT bad, but lots of those shoots require "X" amount of slug/buckshot loadings, and that crap gets EXPEN$IVE fast.

Let me know how it goes!

 

[joshw0000]

My first shot 410 Judge argument has been more along the lines of jlangholzj thoughts. As much as I know and shoot my weapons, I feel like my first shot MIGHT not be 100% on target. Every range day seems to start that way. The first shot or 2 has a looser pattern than the rest of the day. So having 3 balls and a couple inches play seems to me like a better chance of putting down my target.

I can see both of your points about the reaction of your target. If the person is there to kill you, chances are they're already red and going to have a weapon drawn. The adrenaline COULD prevent them from feeling a non-fatal wound and give them the opportunity to shoot back. At least in my situation, I feel like an intruder would probably have his hands full of electronics (which many people who know me know I buy/sell/trade on the the side) so the target would most likely be more focused on getting out than fighting back.

I can also vouch for the Shield. It has a little kick but with a firm grip it always falls right back in line for another shot.

And I'm not blessed with as much meat as you guys. I was always the skinny guy in school. Been hitting the gym regularly for about 15 years. I offset that with plenty of fast food and beer so I'm fairly toned in most areas, just not as much as I'd like in my stomache. If I have time to put my IWB on, my Shield is pretty comfortable between the small of my back and hip. Otherwise it's just easier to pocket carry.