What does the diffent keyways on timming chain do?

Creomod

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Ok I have 2 cars so double the problems. Please bear with me. Id also like to add that I AM checking my replies so please bear with me if I take I while. So I bought a 92 mustang month ago. Changed coolant becuase looked brown.(burped engine)Car has stock temp gauge so hard for me to understand because it says NORMAL. Out of nowhere the car shot up. I was already running around 230 temp so It overheated. I bought new motorcraft pump,balancer,timming cover and heres where I mightve got carried away. I took off timming cover and decided to change chain. It has a cloyes 9 key chain .I "THINK" I REALLY DO THINK THAT THE SMALL sprocket was on the 0 keyway. I installed a comp cams set at 0 keyway put eveything back together. So I added coolant with huge funnel(to burp and add coolant)and it wouldnt stop bubbling. I just thought man this thing has lots of air. So went for a drive and I noticed lack of power big time.I know it has a aftermarket cam (not sure what cam)I also head a accsinal "pop" sound that one i think is the chain hitting/rubbing so took everything apart was very exaushted yesterday thinking im repairing somthing and just A terrible day. So when do you know to install on a avdance key way or retared key way? I really suspect blown head gasket but I was thinking that scince I did the chain I must have installed the small sprocket differnet from original postion. Or can a blown head gasket cause a big loss of power!Were talking like 50 or more I mean when I punched it before i took it apart it hauled now its like a sluggish old stock cammer.
 
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LILCBRA

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You install an advance/retarded key timing chain according to what you want to do with your engine. Generally speaking, retarding it raises horsepower and advancing it raises torque. Here's a link to Summit racing to help explain:


Next, if your coolant was brown, did you do a flush too? And, silly question I know, but did you check your oil as well? When you filled it was it on level ground or did you have the nose of the car in the air at all? I mean, gravity works and air will try to rise to the high point.

Next thing, I had a car that would run hot while in traffic, but going along at highway speeds it would be ok. By running hot I mean exactly as you described, it would get up to the 230ish mark and I'd park it until it cooled down. After chasing my tail trying to get it to cool, I later found that my timing was off by A LOT, although it ran fairly well. Long story short, have you checked and confirmed that your timing is good?

Another thing to think about if you have Trick Flow heads, they require a hole be drilled in certain blocks. Might this be the case with your car? I don't remember the years that that's required, but I do know it was earlier blocks. I have a set installed on a 68 302 block that needed drilled. If your block is original to your car you probably don't need to worry about that, but thought I'd throw it out there......
 
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HemiRick

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see if you can tell looking closely at the old small gear which keyway it was using.....set the new one to that same degree, generally this is decided and checked while decreeing the cam.
 
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Creomod

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You install an advance/retarded key timing chain according to what you want to do with your engine. Generally speaking, retarding it raises horsepower and advancing it raises torque. Here's a link to Summit racing to help explain:


Next, if your coolant was brown, did you do a flush too? And, silly question I know, but did you check your oil as well? When you filled it was it on level ground or did you have the nose of the car in the air at all? I mean, gravity works and air will try to rise to the high point.

Next thing, I had a car that would run hot while in traffic, but going along at highway speeds it would be ok. By running hot I mean exactly as you described, it would get up to the 230ish mark and I'd park it until it cooled down. After chasing my tail trying to get it to cool, I later found that my timing was off by A LOT, although it ran fairly well. Long story short, have you checked and confirmed that your timing is good?

Another thing to think about if you have Trick Flow heads, they require a hole be drilled in certain blocks. Might this be the case with your car? I don't remember the years that that's required, but I do know it was earlier blocks. I have a set installed on a 68 302 block that needed drilled. If your block is original to your car you probably don't need to worry about that, but thought I'd throw it out there......
Yes flushed water oil looks good . As for the timing it’s good no trick flow heads lol on the sprocket installing it advanced or retarded isn’t that the same as adjusting at the distributor? I’m not sure what can I’m running so if I advance or retared could that damage engine if I set to either setting other then 0?
 

Creomod

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see if you can tell looking closely at the old small gear which keyway it was using.....set the new one to that same degree, generally this is decided and checked while decreeing the cam.
Yea I looked really close let and yea you can kinda see where there is some wear and it appears to have been at the 0. I’m just tripping on the jetway sprocket thing setting that initially isn’t that equivalent to moving distributor around?
 

LILCBRA

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Yes flushed water oil looks good . As for the timing it’s good no trick flow heads lol on the sprocket installing it advanced or retarded isn’t that the same as adjusting at the distributor? I’m not sure what can I’m running so if I advance or retared could that damage engine if I set to either setting other then 0?
No, advancing/retarding the cam relates to valve timing, not ignition timing. Those are separate events. If you advance the valve timing, it is possible to cause engine damage. Depending on the cam specs, it could cause piston and valve interference.

Having said that though, if you didn't re-time the engine after changing the timing chain, it is possible that the timing isn't correct any longer since the distributor is driven by the cam.
 
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Creomod

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No, advancing/retarding the cam relates to valve timing, not ignition timing. Those are separate events. If you advance the valve timing, it is possible to cause engine damage. Depending on the cam specs, it could cause piston and valve interference.

Having said that though, if you didn't re-time the engine after changing the timing chain, it is possible that the timing isn't correct any longer since the distributor is driven by the cam.
Damn ok that’s deep I haven’t dealt with cam swap so I’ve read that but ok brother what would I need to do to find out? Can I get any info off the cam if I take off the cam plate? And can a blown head gasket cause me to loose that much power? I appreciate that brother
 

LILCBRA

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It depends on the head gasket failure. If it was bad enough to cause a loss of compression I'd think it would definitely be noticeable that it was blown if you can't see any evidence of oil and water mix, but I could be wrong. I've honestly never had a head gasket blow on any of my cars. :shrug:

As for cam info, it's possible to find stampings on the end of the cam to be able to identify it, but I can't say for certain. The only way to find out for your specific cam is to pull the retainer off and look. I can't remember where the Ford letter cams are stamped, but I think it's on the far end so it wouldn't be visible if that's what it is. Another manufacturer might do something differently OR they may not mark it at all. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's a crap shoot.
 

Creomod

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It depends on the head gasket failure. If it was bad enough to cause a loss of compression I'd think it would definitely be noticeable that it was blown if you can't see any evidence of oil and water mix, but I could be wrong. I've honestly never had a head gasket blow on any of my cars. :shrug:

As for cam info, it's possible to find stampings on the end of the cam to be able to identify it, but I can't say for certain. The only way to find out for your specific cam is to pull the retainer off and look. I can't remember where the Ford letter cams are stamped, but I think it's on the far end so it wouldn't be visible if that's what it is. Another manufacturer might do something differently OR they may not mark it at all. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's a crap shoot.
Thank you brother I was reading it says I can use a gauge at the pushrod end of the rocker to check lift . As for the gasket thing I will tell you as I put coolant I was burping engine and it never stopped bubbling and it’s like big bubbles I’m assuming big break. Oil appears to be right it’s the coolant that is brown it also steams with red cap off
 
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General karthief

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That sounds like a blown head gasket, do a compression test, likely blew out at a water jacket, just throw'n that out there.
Oh, wait, :doh: fix the timing chain first.
 
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LILCBRA

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Thank you brother I was reading it says I can use a gauge at the pushrod end of the rocker to check lift . As for the gasket thing I will tell you as I put coolant I was burping engine and it never stopped bubbling and it’s like big bubbles I’m assuming big break. Oil appears to be right it’s the coolant that is brown it also steams with red cap off

If you're pouring coolant into the engine and it "burps", it's either filling the cavities of the cooling system or it's going somewhere else. If you find no evidence of coolant anywhere else - oil pan, different cylinders, or on the floor - then you're probably ok. Brown coolant could be nothing more than rust sediment that's suspended in the fluid. As the thief says, check compression if you're concerned for a blown head gasket, that'll tell you if it's a problem. Or, if you have access to a leak down tester, you can add pressure to the cylinder and listen for leaking air. If it's a head gasket failure that's that bad you should hear the air escaping. I would think you could borrow one from your local parts store, but if not they're not horribly expensive if you're interested in picking one up.

Amazon productView: https://www.amazon.com/LEIMO-Cylinder-Compression-Leakdown-Diagnostics/dp/B07W9FXKTF


Hell, for that matter, you should be able to pick up a radiator pressure tester from your local parts store and check that as well. Again, if you're interested in buying your own I'm sure you can pick one up off of Amazon.
 

CarMichael Angelo

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Wow,…there is just way too much of why in this thread.

Firstly, Why would you remove a $200.00 9 key way double roller timing chain set and replace it? It had already been replaced before, and a good chain is reusable..numerous times.

To rule out a bad cylinder/head gasket why aren’t you just doing a simple compression check? So easy, even a caveman can do it. As stated, for power to be down as a result of a bad head gasket, and for a constant amount of air getting into the cooling system, wherever the air is getting in, the antifreeze would be getting out. If it’s not in your oil or on the floor, or going out your tailpipe, your problems are not cylinder seal related. As I’ve said, forget the leak down tester, and just do a compression test. if you have a really low cylinder a CT will tell you.

If you don’t know the difference between ignition timing, and cam timing, why don’t you take a minute to learn it?

Id bet you got the distributor in wrong, a firing order issue, or worse, you’ve got the timing gear set indexed incorrectly.
If you’ve got the timing chain on wrong, but close enough to start, lack of power could be there. If you have the ignition timing incorrect (i.e. too far retarded) again lack of power could be there. The occasional popping you’re hearing certainly wasn’t the chain hitting anything, it’s your engine pissing and moaning because you did something else wrong, and without someone who knows looking at it, no cyber mechanic here is going to be able to say definitely “ Oh,..this is what you did wrong”.

If it ran right before you decided to open it up, and now it don’t, seems pretty unlikely that a HG just decided to let go now…

Why don’t you take a pic of the timing chain and post it up here so people can look?
 
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General karthief

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:doh:@LILCBRA called me "the thief " :eek:
That's GENERAL karthief!!
I didn't earn it but I am going to use it to my advantage (as soon as I figure out what that is)
And @CarMichael Angelo he came here to learn what he doesn't know, even if he doesn't know what he needs to know,
I think.
Anyway, crack your knuckles and hit them keys and tell him what ignition timing and cam timing does and why he should do what he needs to do or something, you can do it better than I, :nice:
 

CarMichael Angelo

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:doh:@LILCBRA called me "the thief " :eek:
That's GENERAL karthief!!
I didn't earn it but I am going to use it to my advantage (as soon as I figure out what that is)
And @CarMichael Angelo he came here to learn what he doesn't know, even if he doesn't know what he needs to know,
I think.
Anyway, crack your knuckles and hit them keys and tell him what ignition timing and cam timing does and why he should do what he needs to do or something, you can do it better than I, :nice:
I’m Sorry,..
Maybe it’s my skewed logic,…it’s just that I’d think it makes most sense to learn before just tearing into sht.
 
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LILCBRA

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:doh:@LILCBRA called me "the thief " :eek:
That's GENERAL karthief!!
I didn't earn it but I am going to use it to my advantage (as soon as I figure out what that is)
And @CarMichael Angelo he came here to learn what he doesn't know, even if he doesn't know what he needs to know,
I think.
Anyway, crack your knuckles and hit them keys and tell him what ignition timing and cam timing does and why he should do what he needs to do or something, you can do it better than I, :nice:

To be fair, you're the only "thief" here that I'm aware of, so that makes you THE thief - general or no! :shrug:
Besides, I'm no longer in any branch of the service, so rank just doesn't mean anything to me anymore. ;)

And so far, to the OP, 3 different tests have been suggested and a number of different things to check. 3 votes for a compression test, and I suggested a leak down type test and a coolant pressure test if you're concerned you have a coolant leak as bad as what you've led me to believe, which require different tools. Timing requires a timing light and should probably be the first thing to check and confirm. Then, tear the front of the engine down and confirm that the timing chain is indeed correctly installed. The last thing to check would be to see about your head gasket. As Mike said, it's highly unlikely unless there's something you've not let us in on. I'm sure, from what was described, it was an error on your part during the assembly process that has caused the engine to run like :poo: vs the catastrophic failure of something. That's not saying a catastrophic failure wasn't caused by incorrect installation though, but a head gasket wouldn't be at or near the top of the list.

Now, having said all of that, you said you ran your engine hotter than 230* - how hot did it get? Do you have an aftermarket temperature gauge installed to be able to say? And how long was it ran at that higher temp?
 
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Creomod

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Wow,…there is just way too much of why in this thread.

Firstly, Why would you remove a $200.00 9 key way double roller timing chain set and replace it? It had already been replaced before, and a good chain is reusable..numerous times.

To rule out a bad cylinder/head gasket why aren’t you just doing a simple compression check? So easy, even a caveman can do it. As stated, for power to be down as a result of a bad head gasket, and for a constant amount of air getting into the cooling system, wherever the air is getting in, the antifreeze would be getting out. If it’s not in your oil or on the floor, or going out your tailpipe, your problems are not cylinder seal related. As I’ve said, forget the leak down tester, and just do a compression test. if you have a really low cylinder a CT will tell you.

If you don’t know the difference between ignition timing, and cam timing, why don’t you take a minute to learn it?

Id bet you got the distributor in wrong, a firing order issue, or worse, you’ve got the timing gear set indexed incorrectly.
If you’ve got the timing chain on wrong, but close enough to start, lack of power could be there. If you have the ignition timing incorrect (i.e. too far retarded) again lack of power could be there. The occasional popping you’re hearing certainly wasn’t the chain hitting anything, it’s your engine pissing and moaning because you did something else wrong, and without someone who knows looking at it, no cyber mechanic here is going to be able to say definitely “ Oh,..this is what you did wrong”.

If it ran right before you decided to open it up, and now it don’t, seems pretty unlikely that a HG just decided to let go now…

Why don’t you take a pic of the timing chain and post it up here so people can look?
I don’t have a compression tester I will get one sorry anti-social don’t know anyone I could ask to borrow one from. I think I blew a gasket because the car overheated I just bought the car first thing I did was oil change and coolant flush I assumed that the pump was going bad and that’s why the water was brown and as for timing chain , I should’ve never have touched it lack of experience and unshure of myself I think I just assumed replace it with new now that I’m there. I wish I knew someone who knows these cars but shady mechanics around here. So what kind of sound would I here if chain was rubbing? I assumed it was rubbing on the back and I read instructions said to grind block so I decide to install the clolyes chain back on. So that’s the pic I sent. I installed the comp cam one the same way I used tdc indicator hear hissing at tdc where these points line up. Lined up cam dowl pin down and key way sprocket 0 up bottom tooth in middle of the top gear teeth. I can tell you I could’ve sworn before I removed anything I saw the chain it in the same position i keep installing it in. Didn’t include side view because you said it’s likely not rubbing and I was in a hurry.The firing order is right I popped off the cap with from my other car and switched it out. I know I’m good there. Does it matter if I’m at tdc compression stroke or 180 out? Might be dumb question but first time dealing with aftermarket cam my other car has stock cam so didn’t have to really lean valve cam timing I guess. It does constantly bubble from radiator and it didn’t do that month back when I drained coolant and burped it. After I got air out it stopped after few min. Not this time it kept going till I shut off car.can the water get hit to where it just evaporated and cooked away? It’s not on the floor oil is black coolant is brown. Spcould’ve been wet but just assumed it was
Wow,…there is just way too much of why in this thread.

Firstly, Why would you remove a $200.00 9 key way double roller timing chain set and replace it? It had already been replaced before, and a good chain is reusable..numerous times.

To rule out a bad cylinder/head gasket why aren’t you just doing a simple compression check? So easy, even a caveman can do it. As stated, for power to be down as a result of a bad head gasket, and for a constant amount of air getting into the cooling system, wherever the air is getting in, the antifreeze would be getting out. If it’s not in your oil or on the floor, or going out your tailpipe, your problems are not cylinder seal related. As I’ve said, forget the leak down tester, and just do a compression test. if you have a really low cylinder a CT will tell you.

If you don’t know the difference between ignition timing, and cam timing, why don’t you take a minute to learn it?

Id bet you got the distributor in wrong, a firing order issue, or worse, you’ve got the timing gear set indexed incorrectly.
If you’ve got the timing chain on wrong, but close enough to start, lack of power could be there. If you have the ignition timing incorrect (i.e. too far retarded) again lack of power could be there. The occasional popping you’re hearing certainly wasn’t the chain hitting anything, it’s your engine pissing and moaning because you did something else wrong, and without someone who knows looking at it, no cyber mechanic here is going to be able to say definitely “ Oh,..this is what you did wrong”.

If it ran right before you decided to open it up, and now it don’t, seems pretty unlikely that a HG just decided to let go now…

Why don’t you take a pic of the timing chain and post it up here so people can look?
i don’t know why I changed the chain, I just wanted to buy a new one and didn’t think it was going to a nightmare
 

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Creomod

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I don’t have a compression tester I will get one sorry anti-social don’t know anyone I could ask to borrow one from. I think I blew a gasket because the car overheated I just bought the car first thing I did was oil change and coolant flush I assumed that the pump was going bad and that’s why the water was brown and as for timing chain , I should’ve never have touched it lack of experience and unshure of myself I think I just assumed replace it with new now that I’m there. I wish I knew someone who knows these cars but shady mechanics around here. So what kind of sound would I here if chain was rubbing? I assumed it was rubbing on the back and I read instructions said to grind block so I decide to install the clolyes chain back on. So that’s the pic I sent. I installed the comp cam one the same way I used tdc indicator hear hissing at tdc where these points line up. Lined up cam dowl pin down and key way sprocket 0 up bottom tooth in middle of the top gear teeth. I can tell you I could’ve sworn before I removed anything I saw the chain it in the same position i keep installing it in. Didn’t include side view because you said it’s likely not rubbing and I was in a hurry.The firing order is right I popped off the cap with from my other car and switched it out. I know I’m good there. Does it matter if I’m at tdc compression stroke or 180 out? Might be dumb question but first time dealing with aftermarket cam my other car has stock cam so didn’t have to really lean valve cam timing I guess. It does constantly bubble from radiator and it didn’t do that month back when I drained coolant and burped it. After I got air out it stopped after few min. Not this time it kept going till I shut off car.can the water get hit to where it just evaporated and cooked away? It’s not on the floor oil is black coolant is brown. Spark plugs been wet but just assumed it was

i don’t know why I changed the chain, I just wanted to buy a new one and didn’t think it was going to a nightmare
 

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Creomod

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To be fair, you're the only "thief" here that I'm aware of, so that makes you THE thief - general or no! :shrug:
Besides, I'm no longer in any branch of the service, so rank just doesn't mean anything to me anymore. ;)

And so far, to the OP, 3 different tests have been suggested and a number of different things to check. 3 votes for a compression test, and I suggested a leak down type test and a coolant pressure test if you're concerned you have a coolant leak as bad as what you've led me to believe, which require different tools. Timing requires a timing light and should probably be the first thing to check and confirm. Then, tear the front of the engine down and confirm that the timing chain is indeed correctly installed. The last thing to check would be to see about your head gasket. As Mike said, it's highly unlikely unless there's something you've not let us in on. I'm sure, from what was described, it was an error on your part during the assembly process that has caused the engine to run like :poo: vs the catastrophic failure of something. That's not saying a catastrophic failure wasn't caused by incorrect installation though, but a head gasket wouldn't be at or near the top of the list.

Now, having said all of that, you said you ran your engine hotter than 230* - how hot did it get? Do you have an aftermarket temperature gauge installed to be able to say? And how long was it ran at that higher temp?
I just bought the car month back haven’t invested into a gauge yet. I was going by the factory gauges but it did get hot like all the way to the last white mark next to the red one
 

Creomod

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This is the original chain I put it back on with blue loctite 45 lbs at tdc with indicator. When car was on I set timing at 12 and 14 is that good Timming to run with a aftermarket cam? Should I go higher on timming?Yes I will try a compression test by weekend at least that will tell me something.Could the bubbling in rad be from just water maybe not cooling for some reason like a blockage? Maybe thermostat being stuck could cause this or it’s likely air? It’s just non stop bubnles
 

LILCBRA

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