What Fuel Pump And Injectors Tfs Top End

2000xp8 · Mar 10, 2014

I see no use for a 190.
More than a NA setup needs and less than a supercharged needs.
IMO, it's a 155 or a HP255.

I also don't buy into the "room to grow" with the injectors and meter.
It's a guess at best on what's going to happen next.

From what i've seen over the years, the engine runs best when you use the closest to right injector as possible for the combo.
In this situation i think it's 24's.

84Ttop · Mar 10, 2014

2000xp8 said:
I see no use for a 190.
More than a NA setup needs and less than a supercharged needs.
IMO, it's a 155 or a HP255.

I also don't buy into the "room to grow" with the injectors and meter.
It's a guess at best on what's going to happen next.

From what i've seen over the years, the engine runs best when you use the closest to right injector as possible for the combo.
In this situation i think it's 24's.

Agreed! ^^^

90lxwhite · Mar 10, 2014

I'm gonna blow my wad on a v3

Gearbanger 101 · Mar 10, 2014

FoxMustangLvr said:
For a TFS (H/C/I) top end, would a 190lph, 30# injectors w/ 75mm MAF (recalibrated to 30's) & 70mm TB work well together?

Sure would.

Gearbanger 101 · Mar 11, 2014

2000xp8 said:
I see no use for a 190.
More than a NA setup needs and less than a supercharged needs.
IMO, it's a 155 or a HP255.

I also don't buy into the "room to grow" with the injectors and meter.
It's a guess at best on what's going to happen next.

From what i've seen over the years, the engine runs best when you use the closest to right injector as possible for the combo.
In this situation i think it's 24's.

Most of the data I've seen regarding the 155lph pumps is that they rarely flow what they claim. Also, considering they're the same price and provide quiet operation, the upgrade from a stock 88lph, to a 190lph pump is a no brainer. There are ZERO drawbacks really. One can run a 155lph pump if they wish, but there's no harm in going with the 190lph if available.

I also kinda don't buy into the whole "engine runs best with the closest to right injector" statement. Most top end H/C/I packages are going to flow pretty comparable amounts of air at idle and off idle condition.

The engine is going to either run well with an injector/MAF/ECU set up, or it isn't. A 400hp 302 with 30lb injectors can be tuned to drive and idle as well as a stock 225hp 302 with 19's. Heck....there are cars tuned out there with 60lb/hr injectors on near stock engines that run and drive as well as 19's do.

IMO, how well an engine runs with the desired injector is going to depend on how well the car is tuned to make it work. Whether it's with a custom ECU tune, MAF (to an extent), or whatever.

2000xp8 · Mar 11, 2014

Gearbanger 101 said:
Most of the data I've seen regarding the 155lph pumps is that they rarely flow what they claim. Also, considering they're the same price and provide quiet operation, the upgrade from a stock 88lph, to a 190lph pump is a no brainer. There are ZERO drawbacks really. One can run a 155lph pump if they wish, but there's no harm in going with the 190lph if available.

I also kinda don't buy into the whole "engine runs best with the closest to right injector" statement. Most top end/CI packages are going to flow pretty comparable amounts of air at idle adn off idle condition.

The engine is going to either run well with an injector/MAF/ECU set up, or it isn't. A 400hp 302 with 30lb injectors can be tuned to drive and idle as well as a stock 225hp 302 with 19's. Heck....there are cars tuned out there with 60lb/hr injectors on near stock engines that run and drive as well as 19's do.

IMO, how well an engine runs with the desired injector is going to depend on how well the car is tuned to make it work. Whether it's with a custom ECU tune, MAF (to an extent), or whatever.

I've seen 155's support 450rwhp+ NA. Of course you could use a 190, but i still see no reason at all for the 190 to even exist. It's just another way of extracting another 20 bucks from you pocket, literally for nothing useful.

As for the injectors, paying to have a NA car tuned to make up for buying the wrong meter and injector isn't very cost effective.
I have no idea how well that works. Why? Because i wouldn't do it. I do know straight up putting 30's in a car that only needs 24's is worse. How? I did it when i sold off the 24's and meter when i was going with better parts. Ran the same 30's and meter with the new parts and it was perfect.

Gearbanger 101 · Mar 11, 2014

2000xp8 said:
As for the injectors, paying to have a NA car tuned to make up for buying the wrong meter and injector isn't very cost effective.
I have no idea how well that works. Why? Because i wouldn't do it. I do know straight up putting 30's in a car that only needs 24's is worse. How? I did it when i sold off the 24's and meter when i was going with better parts. Ran the same 30's and meter with the new parts and it was perfect.

Speaking of a waste of injector. I look at 24lb/hr injectos the same way you see a 190lph pump. IMO, 24's shouldn't even exist. Yeah, they were the ticket back in the mid-90's when they were made famous on the '93 Cobra and tuning technologies were in their infancy....but today's crop of components are a game changers by comparison. Big injectors can be programed to perform like smaller ones for excellent idle characteristics and driveability. IMO, the industry should do away with them just like Ford did away with the old blue top 36'ers. There's no need for that many options anymore.

You state that you started with 24lb injectors and matching meter and the set up ran better than it did after stepped up to 30lb injectors and matching meter.....yet you say it worked perfectly when you upgraded to the larger engine components. How is buying two sets of injectors and meters a more "cost effective option" than someone who starts with the bigger injectors and meter from the get go, with the intent of upgrading the engine components later on?

Take for example the latest crop of turbo guys bolting kits to near stock cars. A lot of these guys are seeing 400-450hp HP set up's and are still running their stock E7TE H/C/I top ends....yet are feeding them with big fuel components that are tuned to idle and drive like they did when the car still had the original '19's, 55mm MAF meter and 60mm Throttle Body.

The quality of the meter, the tune and the condition of the parts being used has more to do with how well the car runs that the size of the injectors IMO.

2000xp8 · Mar 11, 2014

Gearbanger 101 said:
Speaking of a waste of injector. I look at 24lb/hr injectos the same way you see a 190lph pump. IMO, 24's shouldn't even exist. Yeah, they were the ticket back in the mid-90's when they were made famous on the '93 Cobra and tuning technologies were in their infancy....but today's crop of components are a game changers by comparison. Big injectors can be programed to perform like smaller ones for excellent idle characteristics and driveability. IMO, the industry should do away with them just like Ford did away with the old blue top 36'ers. There's no need for that many options anymore.

Take for example the latest crop of turbo guys bolting kits to near stock cars. A lot of these guys are seeing 400-450hp HP set up's and are still running their stock E7TE H/C/I top ends....yet are feeding them with big fuel components that are tuned to idle and drive like they did when the car still had the original '19's, 55mm MAF meter and 60mm Throttle Body.

The quality of the meter, the tune and the condition of the parts being used has more to do with how well the car runs that the size of the injectors IMO.

So you think paying $500+ for a tune or tuning equipment is a better idea than just running the right injector for the combo?
You get way more power by putting that money into better parts than you do wasting it to tune a car because you bought the wrong injectors.
$500 can be the difference in running gt40p head or twisted wedges.

If you have the best parts available and unlimited funding, go ahead spend your money any way you want.
But it would be plain old ignorant to run mediocre parts then pay to tune around the injectors when you could have just bought the right parts in the first place for the exact same amount of money as the wrong ones.

You run gt40x heads, right? (which i happen to like)
Now imagine instead blowing money on tuners or tuning you spent the extra cash on AFR's.
You would probably see a 50rwhp increase in power.

Your theory has a place, but that place isn't with a budget minded HCI setup.
I could see the idea with a supercharged setup where eventually you will turn up the boost and need 42's, just not with a 300rwhp budget setup.

A5literMan · Mar 11, 2014

^^^agree

elarm1 · Mar 11, 2014

I run 24lb injectors and an aeromotive 340 pump in the tank. I hit it occasionally with a 125 shot and I've had no problems with my set up

Gearbanger 101 · Mar 11, 2014

2000xp8 said:
So you think paying $500+ for a tune or tuning equipment is a better idea than just running the right injector for the combo?
You get way more power by putting that money into better parts than you do wasting it to tune a car because you bought the wrong injectors.
$500 can be the difference in running gt40p head or twisted wedges.

If you have the best parts available and unlimited funding, go ahead spend your money any way you want.
But it would be plain old ignorant to run mediocre parts then pay to tune around the injectors when you could have just bought the right parts in the first place for the exact same amount of money as the wrong ones.

You run gt40x heads, right? (which i happen to like)
Now imagine instead blowing money on tuners or tuning you spent the extra cash on AFR's.
You would probably see a 50rwhp increase in power.

Your theory has a place, but that place isn't with a budget minded HCI setup.
I could see the idea with a supercharged setup where eventually you will turn up the boost and need 42's, just not with a 300rwhp budget setup.

Truth be told, I wouldn't have wasted the money on either injector upgrade right off the hop. The stock 19's, a larger fuel pump and an adjust able FPR would carry you thorough pretty much any bolt on set up until one chose to step up to a serious H/C/I top end.

....which is exactly why I waited till I bought that top end in order to upgrade those components. No need for a tune, and no real loss in horsepower to speak of. At least nothing that showed up on the all important SOTP meter.

And yes, I did go with the GT40X's....which I'm quite aware is a "middle of the road" head as far as what is available on the market today. I'm also quite aware that fore another $500-$700 over what I paid, I could have picked up a set of used TFS, or AFR's and been further ahead in the power department....but then I would have been behind schedule on my build and wouldn't have been able to afford, or coordinate it with the delivery and build of my stroker short block to go along with it. I had another roller 302 block here, so it seemed to make more sense to me to built the engine on the stand and drop it in place as a single unit over a weekend with minimal down time that to wait till I had it out of the car to start my build up.

BTW....I've spent nothing on tuning with the set up (although I'm not against it....more because I just can't leave stuff well enough alone, rather than out of necessity). The Pro-M 80 MAF meter and 30/lb/hr injectors for the most part seem to be working well together. I'm pretty certain my drivability issues experienced last season revolved around the bad head gasket I discovered in the fall and hope to remedy this spring.

Had I done it the other way, I would have had to pull the engine (or at the very least lifted it) in order to fit the long tube headers I had, and surely maxed the 19's with the TFS head's, intake and supporting parts....requiring the fuel and intake component upgrade right off the hop. That is of course until I needed to tear the engine down a second time in order to send the block out for machining to install the stroker kit and camshaft that I couldn't install the first time around.

I knew I was going to be in for a compromise at some point in my project. It just seemed simplest and the least amount of hassle for me to choose the heads as the choke point, that could be changed in car, in a matter of hours over anything else. The other way would have had me down for weeks, with considerably more hassle and expense.

elarm1 said:
I run 24lb injectors and an aeromotive 340 pump in the tank. I hit it occasionally with a 125 shot and I've had no problems with my set up

Ahhh....different circumstances altogether. Your nitrous kit pressurizes your rail, driving up the fuel pressure to feed the injector in order to fulfil your horsepower needs. Try feeding those power levels on an all motor set up and you'd have those 24's screaming for mercy. lol

RangerJoe · Mar 11, 2014

89oem said:
For sake of argument Id think that a 320lph pump on the tfs 170/"gt40" and typical cam with no future mods planned would be like driving a dually to deliver a bag of play sand, but everyone seems to go with the walbro 255 and then complain its noisy. does anyone have experience with the tre or highflow or some other brand? and would 255 be a good middle ground or a 155-190?
there's always the high probability boost may follow in any build and dropping the tank is a pain....

I've been researching the Tre pumps. I can't find any bad reviews. It may be my next pump.

Joe

2000xp8 · Mar 11, 2014

Gearbanger 101 said:
Truth be told, I wouldn't have wasted the money on either injector upgrade right off the hop. The stock 19's, a larger fuel pump and an adjust able FPR would carry you thorough pretty much any bolt on set up until one chose to step up to a serious H/C/I top end.

....which is exactly why I waited till I bought that top end in order to upgrade those components. No need for a tune, and no real loss in horsepower to speak of. At least nothing that showed up on the all important SOTP meter.

And yes, I did go with the GT40X's....which I'm quite aware is a "middle of the road" head as far as what is available on the market today. I'm also quite aware that fore another $500-$700 over what I paid, I could have picked up a set of used TFS, or AFR's and been further ahead in the power department....but then I would have been behind schedule on my build and wouldn't have been able to afford, or coordinate it with the delivery and build of my stroker short block to go along with it. I had another roller 302 block here, so it seemed to make more sense to me to built the engine on the stand and drop it in place as a single unit over a weekend with minimal down time that to wait till I had it out of the car to start my build up.

BTW....I've spent nothing on tuning with the set up (although I'm not against it....more because I just can't leave stuff well enough alone, rather than out of necessity). The Pro-M 80 MAF meter and 30/lb/hr injectors for the most part seem to be working well together. I'm pretty certain my drivability issues experienced last season revolved around the bad head gasket I discovered in the fall and hope to remedy this spring.

Had I done it the other way, I would have had to pull the engine (or at the very least lifted it) in order to fit the long tube headers I had, and surely maxed the 19's with the TFS head's, intake and supporting parts....requiring the fuel and intake component upgrade right off the hop. That is of course until I needed to tear the engine down a second time in order to send the block out for machining to install the stroker kit and camshaft that I couldn't install the first time around.

I knew I was going to be in for a compromise at some point in my project. It just seemed simplest and the least amount of hassle for me to choose the heads as the choke point, that could be changed in car, in a matter of hours over anything else. The other way would have had me down for weeks, with considerably more hassle and expense.

Ahhh....different circumstances altogether. Your nitrous kit pressurizes your rail, driving up the fuel pressure to feed the injector in order to fulfil your horsepower needs. Try feeding those power levels on an all motor set up and you'd have those 24's screaming for mercy. lol

You are confusing me a bit. This post leads me to believe for the most part we are thinking similar.
But in the other post you are saying to run 30's and tune it (when speaking of a 302) and that you disagree with running the closest to necessary injector.
Running 30's without a tune in a car that needs 24's isn't much different than running 24's on an E7 car, which is not good.

You have gt40x's and a 331. I won't doubt you need 30's.
But those parts on a 302, would not.

From what i've seen 30's are effective from about 330rwhp and up.

89oem · Mar 11, 2014

RangerJoe said:
I've been researching the Tre pumps. I can't find any bad reviews. It may be my next pump.

Joe

Thanks Joe, thats kinda my thoughts. price and warranty too Its nice to hear it from you, im thinking this one

http://trefuelpumps.com/c-54630-255-lph-fuel-pumps.html

On the injectors/maf/tb 30 lb, pro-m 80?/ 70mm tb with the typical gt40/tfs hci -is a smooth no tune street set-up? - is that what im getting from the conversation.

RangerJoe · Mar 11, 2014

I wish there was an easier way to get rid of the rev limiter. Once I get my new HCI together, it will take me several months to save for the dyno tune. I will need to in order to rev past 6250.

Joe

89oem · Mar 11, 2014

Im hoping to do my hci before the summer hits... so hci, drive, drive some more then get tune if Im satisfied im done for a while...

Gearbanger 101 · Mar 11, 2014

2000xp8 said:
You are confusing me a bit. This post leads me to believe for the most part we are thinking similar.
But in the other post you are saying to run 30's and tune it (when speaking of a 302) and that you disagree with running the closest to necessary injector.
Running 30's without a tune in a car that needs 24's isn't much different than running 24's on an E7 car, which is not good.

You have gt40x's and a 331. I won't doubt you need 30's.
But those parts on a 302, would not.

From what i've seen 30's are effective from about 330rwhp and up.

What I'm saying is that big injectors CAN be tuned to work like a small injector. Not that they must be used in place of one. I only used 30's as an example because that's what I'm running. Once could run 42's or even 60's if they so desired. Of course if an owner never plans on making big power levels, the need for the larger injector is non existent. BUT....if an owner plans on evolving their combination over time, to a power level worth of those sorts of fuel demands, it makes sense to buy the necessary parts only once, over buying them twice.

Although not ideal, a set of 30lb/hr injectors and corresponding MAF meter and pump can be made to run just fine on a stock H/C/I Fox body until the time presents itself to upgrade the engine components and of curse that the current power levels exceeded that of capabilities of the stock 19lb units.

Some upgrades need to be done in smaller stages than others. I just don't think fuel components with the capabilities of today's MAF technology and ECU tuning software needs to be one of them.

I would personally prefer to see a less powerful engine run a little richer in the lower regions due to an oversized injector choice that runs slightly more capable than power levels dictate, than I would seeing a more powerful engine run lean in the upper regions due to an undersized injector choice that run's above 80% duty cycle under hard acceleration.

NIKwoaC · Mar 12, 2014

RangerJoe said:
I wish there was an easier way to get rid of the rev limiter. Once I get my new HCI together, it will take me several months to save for the dyno tune. I will need to in order to rev past 6250.

Joe

Yea I kind of wish the old Ford Motorsport RPM Extender was still available. Neat little device. I wonder how it worked, and if it would be easy to duplicate.

RangerJoe · Mar 12, 2014

NIKwoaC said:
Yea I kind of wish the old Ford Motorsport RPM Extender was still available. Neat little device. I wonder how it worked, and if it would be easy to duplicate.

The few I've seen floating around are still fetching $200 easily. At that price, I would rather just spend another $300-$400 and tune it.

Joe

Gearbanger 101 · Mar 12, 2014

I had the chance to buy one last fall that looked brand new....but it seemed like it was only for pre-EFI Mustangs and the guy didn't know any details about it. Probably could have gotten it for about $100, but I chose to pass.

Don't remember the part number....just that it was blue with riased ribs that were sanded to a machined finished and it had something on the front in the lines of "Build by MSD, for Ford Motorsport" or something to that effect?

What Fuel Pump And Injectors Tfs Top End

2000xp8

84Ttop

They make new pistons every day, so why worry?

90lxwhite

I'm kind of a She-Man

Gearbanger 101

Straight Outta Locash

Gearbanger 101

Straight Outta Locash

2000xp8

Gearbanger 101

Straight Outta Locash

2000xp8

A5literMan

At least it is lumpy...

elarm1

Gearbanger 101

Straight Outta Locash

RangerJoe

I leave the horn on while driving

2000xp8

89oem

Mustang Master

RangerJoe

I leave the horn on while driving

89oem

Mustang Master

Gearbanger 101

Straight Outta Locash

NIKwoaC

中國製造

RangerJoe

I leave the horn on while driving

Gearbanger 101

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