What if it wern't what it is?

LXXVICOBRA

Founding Member
Jul 10, 1999
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Central NY State
The introduction of the '05 brings back many memories, mainly of the enthusiasm which existed during the introduction of the original Mustang back in 1964. Of couse, Ford is also doing a fantastic job of recreating that kind of "hype", thru extensive advertising and "throw back" marketing efforts to help ensure it and promote the models past, and seemingly bringing the Mustang back to the forefront of the current lineup. It's the type of marketing campaign that is seldom seen in recent years, (promoting performance) but was all so common back in the 60's. No doubt, this can only aid in the new Mustang's overall success and popularity.

Certainly, credit must be given too, not only by what appears to be a great effort in duplicating a car which is legendary with its "retro" design, but also by fitting it with such a respectable powertrain. The fact that Ford has such a history with this car, makes it much easier to do (to be sure), by giving them a successful marketing format to follow that many others may have similar recollectiion of. However, I do believe the car would create at least a moderate amount of interest on its own, even without having its enormously popular past lineage (and the ensuing marketing and industry hype), which it is now receiving.

The all new Mustang's arrival similarily reminds me of previous generations initial Mustang introductions....namely those in 1974, 1979, and 1994. While the times and troubles of the world had changed greatly from the camelot days of the early 60's, during which time the ponycar style made it's first debut to a previouosly untapped market with pent up demand....the Mustang II, Fox, and SN95 cars also recaptured the interest of many previous Mustang owners and new buyers alike, though not entirely for the same reasons.

Unfortunatly, during those times, offerings of factory performance became more limited due to the realities of high insurance and fuel prices... along with the trend in the industry of making more fuel efficiant cars, and then the shift to promoting minivans and SUV's which has been growing stronger now for most of the past 20 years.

My question(s) to both previous Mustang owners, and what appears to be a market of many new first time Mustang owners, is this:

a) If the '05 did not have a V-8 and GT option, would you still be excited enough about it to buy it? Would the models past heritage and popular retro style alone, be enough to make the car worthy of your interest and possible purchase?

b) If a new '05 Mustang lacked such retro styling of the early cars, yet had the powerful 300 (or more) hp engine option etc...would you be similarily quick to purchase as you are now?

Keep in mind, that the Mustang II (initially) had no V-8, for example. And despite having many of the original ponycar's styling cues, (and selling in large quantities), it was really never well received by many previous owners of the original car. The Fox cars on the other hand, lacked much of the traditional styling of first generation Mustangs, yet seemed to increase in popularity as it's powertrain became more performance oriented. By 1994, the performance comeback was still gaining momentum. Another new and fresh design that kept RWD gave buyers reason to believe that things could only get better. Yet, had Ford switched to FWD, perhaps all traditional Mustang buyers may have conceeded it being the end of the true ponycar. So, whether it be for styling or performance, the Mustang model has endured a long production run, despite many changes.

Without getting into number crunching, it would appear that the Mustang has remained a successful seller regardless of engine size and horsepower output, from its inception. It would appear too, that the more subjective aspect of the Mustang (it's style) plays an equally important role in determining its overall popularity.

While I would expect most posters to this forum to be mainly be traditional more performance oriented Mustang "enthusiasts"... I belive that many others are relative "newbies" considering the purchase of a Mustang for perhaps the first time. I guess you might say I'm curious how my questions are answered by members belonging to either group, to get a better feel for the basis behind their feelings about the new models, and how they might feel if wasn't exactly what it is!
 
I believe Ford has hit the nail on the head with the exterior design of the 05's. There intention was to retro back to the muscle car era and they did. I only find fault, and this is only my opinion, with the interior dash and console layout. While it is nice that they kept the dash pad shape similar to the 60's models I feel they should have stayed with a more modernized instrument panel, meaning more easily readable gauges and also a console that has the cup holders just right and back of the "manual" shifter so as to make them functional, no matter whether it moves into the passenger space or not. Granted the gauges look neat and well placed in the brochure but when I test drove one I found them hard to read at a glance due to my eyes being drawn first to the chrome ring surrounding the gauge. This car didn't have the interior upgrade package. Maybe I'd get used to it the more I drive it. I did enjoy the test drive. There's definately more room between the driver and the door so you don't feel like your sitting in a civic.

I believe Ford has done right getting back to their original styling. I'm sure the combination of retro styling and a new manufacturing plant that brings the excellent fit and finish well within modern standards will make this car a winner to most buyers.

I've never owned a mustang before. My first car was a 67 Cougar GT-XR7 and my lasts was a 92 Mark VII, both based on the Mustang chassis. Now that I've driven a 05, I'm hoping this may be the first next spring but I'll have to get a longer test drive in first.
 
Barring any last minute problems with the dealer, the 05 Mustang GT will be my first Mustang. I decided to buy after seeing the retro styling of the new vehicle. That is first and foremost in my decision. With that I set out to try and buy a manual speed V6 within a certain time period due to other events that will be coming up and I was very disappointed that a manual was not available at this time. So yes, I would have purchased a V6 option and if the style was still like the past few years I would not have purchased one at all.

I was also very glad that the car is very roomy on the inside. I am a little shy of six feet tall and even with heels on I did not feel cramped inside the car at all.

Eve
 
I would not buy a non-V8 Mustang of any generation including the 05. I am aware that 2/3s of all Mustangs sold are V6, but I believe that the performance image created by the V8 helps sell V6s. without a V8 option the car would not be successfull (or as successful)
As far as you 2nd question it depends on what it would looked like. If it looked like an AMC Pacer I would not buy regardless of what is under the hood.(except for maybe a 427 Side Oiler :D ) But if it it looked good, and performed well sure I would. My last 5 Mustangs looked nothing like my first 2 and I still bought them.
 
Right now (these days) I would be interested in a new or newish Mustang - even if they had not changed body styles.

Being honest - if money was no object my attention would have stayed on Corvettes. I have liked the two prev body styles (Mustangs) and like this one. In the case of GM with the Vette - not trying to be smart butt - it looks like the Aztek design team had something to do with the C6 style. I still like it but not as well as I did the C5.

I am an old guy - I want and like rear wheel drive - V8 cars. That is what I grew up on and that is what seems normal to me.

I also want an American car (regardless of where some of the parts are made). I am not going to dwell on this but we Americans need to start thinking about America. I personally wish I could afford to never walk into WallyWorld again or at least if I did buy only American made products - this entire trade thing has gotten out of hand.

Mustang - Camero - Corvette ...... I hope GM comes back with the Cameros we need more choices - butt if they think a puffed up Cavaliar will work they are wrong. I also wish Chrysler would give me some cars to think about my first three cool cars were Mopar back in the 60s. (yes I know who owns Chrysler but ...)

I do the grumble/bellyache thing when car companies “sell out” a name badge for money. To me the II was a blatant example of that very thing. The 1977 ******* Thunderbird ******** just shoot me. Nova? Impala?. I am sure there is some front wheel drive cars out there with the R/T (Dodge) badge hanging on the sides.

The 05 Mustang IS A MUSTANG - YAY .......... someone pass me the John Wayne movie and some more of that apple pie mom made :)
 
I think that as long as the Mustang stays rwd and carries a V8 it will have a strong following. That being said, I am shocked at how truly retro this car really is. Just for kicks, I took a front bumper from a 67 coupe I am putting together and held it to the front of my 05 GT. The match in contour is almost exact! It's scary. Just check out the little details like the scallops inside the headlight covers, just like a 65-66. Ford did not have to do this at all, as it's not readily visible-but they did! This is the kind of attention to detail that absolutely hooks previous Mustang owners, myself included. GM could learn a lesson from this :rolleyes:




2005 GT Legend Lime (13th Mustang and counting)
auto/iup/mycolor/bullets.
 
I have wanted to buy a 1970 Boss 302 for a number of years. Unfortunately, my life structure (read: wife acceptence factor) is not set-up to own and drive a 35 year old car EVERYDAY. The new GT gives me the opportunity to drive, what I previce, as a superior car, ie, 2005 amenities and engineering, FOR LESS MONEY and satisfies my life structure (see above).

That be said, the fact that the new mustang has a 300 hp V-8 and the retro styling similar to the Boss 302 made it a no-brainer for me.
 
Well I've been a Mustang fan ever since my older brother bought his '65 V8 C4 coupe. Here's my walk down memory lane:
1) When I turned 17 I bought my first Mustang - '65 V8 3 sp coupe (for $350).
2) After that came a '71 Maverick V8 3 sp which was so much like the early Mustangs - same platform & drive train (actually weighed 300# less).
3)Then a '74 Mustang II Mach I which was really a Pinto w/V6 4sp.:bang:
4) Then I came across a '64 Convertible V8 4sp w/console - but VERY rusty.
5) '72 Cougar V8 C4 - twin to Mustangs that year.
6) Then another Maverick - '72 Grabber V8 3 sp
Above were all my daily drivers. Later I got into restorations:
7) '66 Mustang Fastback V8 C4 A/C from AZ - very solid. Restored and sold after 2 years
8) '67 Mustang Convt V8 C4 A/C - Ground up restoration - sold after 2 years.
Then my need for speed kicked in and I bought my current toy:
9) '95 Mustang GT Convt 5.0 5sp loaded. Vortec'd after 1 year - drove for 2 years. Then sold the vortec, installed Incon Twin Turbos - drove for 2 years, but didn't like changing head gaskets. Sold the twins, installed 3.73 and Bullitt suspension, and now sub-frame connectors. Been this way for 2 years now, but I really want like the new ones.

So I will buy one of the new ones. Probably not a convert this time, but I am interested in a SE or Cobra. :nice:

To anwer the questions - I want performance first, styling is second, but still a major factor!!! :banana: I like the Mustang design, though I never really warmed up to the II's. I think they got too big just before the II's came out and I never owned a Fox. I do have to admit that I drove a couple of ricers during the Fox years (RX7 and Supra) and was impressed with performance, handling and quality, but obviously I returned to my heritage - MUSTANGS!!! :flag:

Brian
 
easy double no
I would never buy another mustang without a v8 ( Had one)
I could have bought any mustangs I wanted in the past 15 years....but only this one .....on a turntable under lights said I'M BACK---BUY ME.



BLK on BLK PREM 05 GT
 
Thanks to those who have already responded to my post. Most of you have brought up some fine points while presenting your views. I expect this subject will result in a long thread before all is said and done, with many different viewpoints coming from previous Mustang owners and first time buyers alike.

Some of you many have noticed, that I am an owner and fan of the Mustang II...the first Mustang model that could (in some ways) be considered "retro" to the original. Perhaps this fact inspired me to start this thread topic, as the '05's intro also makes me recall the "shock and awe" factor that surrounded the all new "downsized" Mustang of 1974 upon its introduction, even tho it was more mixed.

Gas shortage issues and the like aside, it was clear by 1973 that the Mustang had grown into something that no longer was as popular or practical to the masses as the original car was. Sales were down, and Ford attempted (rather succesfully) to "turn back the clock" to reinvent the Mustang more along the lines of the original, but at the same time meeting the new requirements and mandates set forth by the govenment pertaining to environmental issues.

The new Mustang II brought a whole new generation of buyers to Ford, yet at the same time created a wedge in the market...moving away from the segment of traditional Mustang buyers that made their purchase decisions soley on the Mustangs previous performance capabilities. Obviously, for a few here...the huge misconceptions and dislike for these cars remains today as part of the Mustang legacy.

BTW, Ron9...all car companies do (or would) "sell out" or redesignate the use of a cars name for money if given the right opportunity. It's as American as baseball, hot dogs, apple pie, your John Wayne movies, and Chevrolet. While the Corvette (a specialty model by design and market segment) has been able to retain its performance image thru the decades by remaining a V8, it too suffered many of the same maladys and relatively uninspired performance as most all other vehicles that were built in the 70's, when you compare it to the earlier cars.
It's a good point that you brought up, about the Mustang having no direct or true competiton in its market segment at this time. This certainly would have to account for a least some of the vast interest in the current Mustang.

Dark_Angel_Dawn... Like you, I would find the V6 manual to be a very enjoyable car...and likely the way I would purchase it if I were buying at this stage in my life. Clearly, styling was the more impoprtant factor in your ulitmate purchase decision, and I think you represent what will be a large segment of future '05 owners. While Ford seems intent on selling the '05's by pushing its performance image, I really believe the car is capable of selling itself sucessfully on its style alone.

Svtpilot...your points are well taken, and true in most cases. Yet, they seem the opinion of one that feels more of a need or desire for performance than most. Thanks for another viewpoint.

TW/92LSC/SE...I agree with your comments about the retro styling being combined into a modern vehicle making this car have much appeal. It would seem dave2K5stang is in full agreemnt with you. Clearly, the appeal to both new owners both young and old, and previous owners that have other obligations in life than putting up with the headaches of owning older performance cars, makes the '05 a good choice.

70snake...I believe most of the retro styling details are important, but less overall than the package as a whole. Personally, I belive the fastback roofline is the single most visable improvement over the previous version cars, followed by the front end treatment. BTW...an interesting note here how Ford apparently feels a "fastback" version of the car would appeal to the largest market segment. It would be interesting to know how the '05 appealed to owners of previous "notchback" cars. Original Mustangs, Mustang II's, and Fox cars offered both versions, and I expect many that liked one style in either model may not have liked the other in that same model.

95Nelson...Sorry that you never had the good fortune of owning a Mustang II with a V8 (stock or modified). These lightweight Mustangs suffer in image from performance minded drivers that only have experience with the 4 and 6 cyl models. The Pinto comparison is not nearly as accurate as you might believe, though I can somewhat understand why so many hold this view, due to what "seems" like obvious similarities. Few probably "warm up" to all previous models of Mustangs, so I don't hold it against you if you just didn't like the styling. Personally, I didn't mind the Fox cars despite their lack of retro styling cues, but never "warmed up" to the S95's.

OK...Time to recheck this thread and end this epic for now. I suspect I'll have more to respond to later!
 
LXXVICOBRA - Thanks for your comments. The V6 II I had was truely a dog when it came to performance and it seems to me, whereas you refer to the II's as light-weight, they weren't. I think my II Mach I was pushing 3k# or more on the weight. My 65's were 2700#, and I know my 95 is HEAVY. It's funny that the Mavericks I had with 302's were really light at just 2400#.

I would have liked to have owned a 69-70 Mach or Boss, but that just didn't happen. With the prices these beauties command now I don't see one coming my way any time soon (unless I hit the lotto, but you guess to have to buy tickets to win). (Defination of lotto - tax on those too dumb to do the math).

I'm glad you like your II's. I like my SN95. Either way we're Mustang brothers.
 
I could never drive a V6 Mustang. It needs to be V8 for me. I have nothing against the car, it's just not my style.

The Mustang has a different attitude in the V6 vs V8 comparision. They are just so different. This isn't like opting to get the 3.8L V6 over the 3.0L in an old taurus. It's much bigger than that.

Lets look back to 1989, when ford came out with the new Ford Mustang. It was FWD and had a turbo 4-banger and a V6 model. Luckily for us, Ford decided not to call it the Mustang and named it the Ford Probe and kept the Mustang a RWD V8.

If the new stang was indeed the Probe, i would not drive it. I don't care if it had 350HP.

I'm just not a V6 guy. I like big engines and tons of power...even in excess.

As for the looks, well, i never lived in the 60's and 70's. I was born in 1981. I do like the looks of the classic stangs, but I don't really care that the new Mustang looks like the old ones. My expeirence with the classics is at car shows really. Maybe i missed out, who knows

I already own two Mustangs that look absolutely NOTHING alike aside from having the Mustang name on them. Ford could have decided to go retro like they did with the '05 and i would have liked it...OR they could have come up with something modern and i'm sure i would have liked that as well.

My point it Ford didn't have to make the Mustang look like a classic. As long as it was still an attractive looking car with V8 power, a 5-spd manual and RWD, i would grow to love it.

You don't pick your children, but you grow to love them regardless.
 
LXXVICOBRA said:
a) If the '05 did not have a V-8 and GT option, would you still be excited enough about it to buy it? Would the models past heritage and popular retro style alone, be enough to make the car worthy of your interest and possible purchase?

b) If a new '05 Mustang lacked such retro styling of the early cars, yet had the powerful 300 (or more) hp engine option etc...would you be similarily quick to purchase as you are now?

a) If it had a high performance (270 - 290 HP), smooth running V6 like the 350Z or G35 and it had all the other GT goodies (suspension, LSD, etc), YES. If all it had was the base 210 HP, V6, NO.

b) If it had ALL the improvements the 2005 has, longer wheelbase, drastically improved suspension, handling, ride, seats, 300 HP V8, etc, etc. and had decent styling, similar to the 99-04's, YES.
 
95Nelson said:
The V6 II I had was truely a dog when it came to performance and it seems to me, whereas you refer to the II's as light-weight, they weren't. I think my II Mach I was pushing 3k# or more on the weight. My 65's were 2700#, and I know my 95 is HEAVY. It's funny that the Mavericks I had with 302's were really light at just 2400#.

You are correct, 95Nelson, The info I have shows the weight of a V8 Mustang II @ 3,290 lb. This is hardly lightweight in my book since a V8 Fox Mustang should weigh around 3,100 lb, a V8 SN95, 3,350 lb (only 60 lb more than a Mustang II) and a 05 GT 3,425 lb.
 
95Nelson...
Quickly checking various sources has given me conflicting curb weights on Mustang II's and other older models. While your figures appear fairly accurate in general terms, certainly there could be as much as a few hundred extra pounds difference between cars, depending on how any car was optioned and its given powertrain. I will conceed the point that the II's were not the lightest Mustangs ever produced....sorry if my post implied that. However, it's doubtful that they were the heaviest either...and by comparison to Camaro and Firebirds of they day they sure seemed lightweight.

Having previously owned a '68 Mustang with stock 289 2bbl (auto) and a '75 Maverick with stock 302 (auto), I noticed little if any real difference in performance when compared to my '76 Mustang with 302 speed. The V8 II's big performance drawback were its primitive emission controls system, restrictive heads and exhaust, mild cam, lack of a 4 bbl carb, and tall rear gearing. Correcting these shortcomings can easily result in a car with equivalent performance to that of a 289 K code Mustang of the 60's vintage, that also had (modern at the time) rack and pinion steering, improved suspension, and power front disc brakes. They also more closely resembled the original cars than anything produced up until now. The V6 and 4cyl models were "dogs" in a performance sense to be sure, and did not benefit from some of the unnoticable upgrades the V8 cars got...but still were in many ways technologiclly superior to the previous base models they replaced.

Put in context of the times...most if not all model years of Mustangs have contributed to keeping the original Mustang spirit alive one way or anther, appealing in different ways to a diverse group of fans. Each has a loyal following of enthusiasts. The Mustang has endured through years of great change in the automotive industry, unlike most of its previous direct competitors.

The new '05 benefits from 40 years of new technology and electronics that provide performance equal to that of larger displacement engines of years past, which along with retro styling and huge improvements in the areas of suspension, tires, and an array of modern day convienieces... creates a total package that appeals to todays youth and the older Mustang fans alike. The V6's of today give respectable performance by comparison, to many of their base V8 predecessors.
Its likey that new manufacturing processes and several other factors have contributed greatly too, in allowing Ford to finally being able to create the kind of new Mustang many have waited so long for. Perhaps this is the first time in 40 years that all the requirements necessary to produce such a car have truly been in place. Now, if gas was only selling at 32.9 again....
 
Mustang5L5 said:
I'm just not a V6 guy. I like big engines and tons of power...even in excess.

As for the looks, well, i never lived in the 60's and 70's. I was born in 1981. I do like the looks of the classic stangs, but I don't really care that the new Mustang looks like the old ones. My expeirence with the classics is at car shows really. Maybe i missed out, who knows

I already own two Mustangs that look absolutely NOTHING alike aside from having the Mustang name on them. Ford could have decided to go retro like they did with the '05 and i would have liked it...OR they could have come up with something modern and i'm sure i would have liked that as well.

My point it Ford didn't have to make the Mustang look like a classic. As long as it was still an attractive looking car with V8 power, a 5-spd manual and RWD, i would grow to love it.

You don't pick your children, but you grow to love them regardless.

I found your post quite interesting, by the fact you are looking at this from the perspective of a younger person than myself. I agree with your thinking too, to a point. I somewhat disagree with your thoughts about Fords need to make this car look like a classic...at least as far as how the rest of the buying public might see things.
I believe ultimately that this will be the cars greatest selling point. The fact they have done it in conjuction with offering a performace V8 only makes it that much better. I belive that without the retro styling, a large segment of the older potential buyers would pass on this model, as many have for many years. Designing a new Mustang that would bridge the generation gap had to be a top priority in the planning of this car. You may not care if the new car looks like the classics, but most buyers over 40 probably do.
Yes, you misssed a lot in a sense, by being born in 1981. However, since it looks like history might be trying to repeat itself, you may luck out yet!
 
66Satellite said:
Gas is still cheap. It's basically kept pace with inflation. Just type in the amount you remember paying in the 60s and see how it compares to 2003 dollars.

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

Yes, I've seen the support for this argument before. While I won't dispute its validity, those gallons of gas sure used to seem to go farther!

BTW 351CJ...that weight you gave for the II sounds really high. Even my heavily optioned V8 car registers at 3016. Perhaps the car you are refering to also was carrying a new soon to be installed 351 engine in the trunk?