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What you need to know about changing internals and getting blown...

  • Thread starter Thread starter TweekedGT
  • Start date Start date Apr 19, 2006

TweekedGT

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Jul 22, 2004
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Apr 19, 2006
#1
  • Apr 19, 2006
  • #1
Here's a list of trouble areas and insights I've come upon while doing my engine build and buying a blower.

Doing forged internals:
1. Find a machine shop before you start anything that will work on 4.6 motors, they are hard to find even though these motors have been around for over 10 years.

2. Decide If you want to reuse your old block or buy new. If you use your old there are pluses and minuses. Your old block has already been heat stressed and relieved so you don't have to worry about breaking it in. You also know all of your accesories will mate properly. Unfortunately it will also cost you more to have your old block machined than to buy a new block. If you buy new you don't have to machine it very much unless you are going with oversize pistons. I found that new blocks are always backordered from Ford Racing so be aware if may take you over 6 months to get a new block. I started collecting parts for my build in November and the blocks are still backordered to this day.

3. First of all buy from a reputable dealer, ModularPowerhouse, VT, SHM, MMR, DSS etc. What type of internals are you going with? What is your ultimate goal? Are you going to stay N/A or go power adder? If your staying N/A or Nitrous go with high compression pistons. If you are going supercharger or turbo get some low compression dished pistons. I'd suggest 23cc-28cc dishes but ask the seller of the internals you are buying their suggestions and give them all of the information you have of where you want to be ultimately with the car. What type of crank is it? Most aftermarket internals come with 8 bolt forged Cobra cranks. Most GT's have a 6 bolt crankshaft. This means you will have to buy a new 8 bolt flywheel and it's a good idea to buy a new clutch when you buy a new flywheel. You will also need 2 new flywheel bolts, these are actually a pain to find. It starts to get expensive in a hurry. Make sure you get your internals balanced from the company you are buying them from, this will cost about $200-$300 extra. Get all of the main bearing, rod bearing, and piston ring clearances for your internals from the seller.

4. Get all new gaskets and replace hardware with ARP hardware where you can. Head bolts are torque to yield, get new ones or better yet buy ARP studs. Buy ARP maincap studs as well. Make sure you have all of the gaskets. Here's a list of the ones I remeber, hope I'm not forgetting any. Oil pan gasket, remote oil filter housing gasket, head gaskets, intake manifold gaskets, timing cover gaskets, valve cover gaskets. You will also need a lower seal kit. The Ford Racing head changing kit is pretty useless. It only comes with some new head bolts, head gaskets, and a new oil dipstick tube. It does not contain timing cover gaskets, valve cover gaskets, or intake manifold gaskets. All of which need to be changed when you take off your heads . Keep this in mind.

5. Always replace your water pump and oil pump with new ones when you take a motor apart. I would also suggest a new starter while you are at it if you have longtubes especially. That stupid starter is a pain to get at when you have longtubes and it would really suck to get everything back together and have that fail.

Fuel System:
1. Do I need to change my fuel system to compensate for my new power? If you are going for high horsepower ie. 400+ it is best you look at new injectors and a new fuel pump. Ask a performance shop what they would recommend for your application.

Supercharging:
1. What supercharger should I buy? This is a personal decision but some information might help you decide what is best for you. Is it mainly a street car or track car? For a street car i would suggest a Kenne Bell, Eaton, Saleen, Roush, or any positive displacement blower. They have instant boost for you at anytime. For a track car i would go with a Centrifugal blower because they spool up slower which enables you to get better traction off the line but they go like crazy when you get them up to rpm. Centrifugals generally make more peak horsepower than positive displacement blowers. Examples are Novi, Vortech, Procharger, Powerdyne. Decide what you want before you buy and do a lot of research.

2. If I buy a supercharger will I need anything else? Some places sell fairly complete kits such as Modular Powerhouse with their Mongoose kits and Kenne Bell with their 1.7 kits. Others you will need to change a few things. Injectors, computer tune/chip. You will almost always have to buy a new maf if you are going big power, most kits do not come with them. The Ford Lightning 90mm MAF is popular as well as the SCT 90mm MAF. You need to decide if you are going intercooled as well. This will limit your boost potential.

This is all I can think of for now and I'm getting pretty long winded. Hopefully some of you guys will have other ideas and comments to throw in as well that I might have missed. I haven't touched on heads and cams yet.
 

RedDaemon

10 Year Member
Mar 31, 2005
3,470
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108
Atlanta, GA
Apr 19, 2006
#2
  • Apr 19, 2006
  • #2
l could have sworn i posted a message here...

ill try it again:

that shows how much determination you have sticking it out, the end is worth it!

what block are you using just out of curiousity..
 

TweekedGT

New Member
Jul 22, 2004
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Apr 19, 2006
#3
  • Apr 19, 2006
  • #3
-=NightHawk=- said:
l could have sworn i posted a message here...

ill try it again:

that shows how much determination you have sticking it out, the end is worth it!

what block are you using just out of curiousity..
Click to expand...

Ya it's been a real pain and very, very expensive. Did I mention it's really expensive? . I'm using my original 96GT block.
 

tomustang

Psychotic Member
Founding Member
Jun 8, 2000
3,434
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78
McLean Hospital
Apr 19, 2006
#4
  • Apr 19, 2006
  • #4
TweekedGT said:
3. First of all buy from a reputable dealer, ModularPowerhouse, VT, SHM, MMR, DSS etc.
Click to expand...
Sorry not reputable

Stay away from this company everyone! You'll just be a sucker on the list of thousands
 

TweekedGT

New Member
Jul 22, 2004
1,274
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0
Alberta
Apr 19, 2006
#5
  • Apr 19, 2006
  • #5
tomustang said:
Sorry not reputable

Stay away from this company everyone! You'll just be a sucker on the list of thousands
Click to expand...
I guess I'm one of the lucky ones cause I haven't had problems with them. they helped me out a lot actually.
 

ADRENLN

Active Member
Apr 16, 2003
2,342
3
49
NJ
Apr 19, 2006
#6
  • Apr 19, 2006
  • #6
thanks for the info i am starting my saving and reaserch now for those exact mods.

yea shm sucks.....and why does an intercooler limit your boost? i thought that you can go higher boost with the intercooler?
 

RedDaemon

10 Year Member
Mar 31, 2005
3,470
9
108
Atlanta, GA
Apr 19, 2006
#7
  • Apr 19, 2006
  • #7
wow, that is some serious coinage, im sorry tweeked
 

jstreet0204

Active Member
Jun 26, 2003
939
0
36
Winston Salem, NC
Apr 19, 2006
#8
  • Apr 19, 2006
  • #8
Great post! I'm in the process of building a forged bottom end as well. I'm going to add to, and dissagree with some of this though.

TweekedGT said:
2. Decide If you want to reuse your old block or buy new. If you use your old there are pluses and minuses. Your old block has already been heat stressed and relieved so you don't have to worry about breaking it in. You also know all of your accesories will mate properly. Unfortunately it will also cost you more to have your old block machined than to buy a new block. If you buy new you don't have to machine it very much unless you are going with oversize pistons. I found that new blocks are always backordered from Ford Racing so be aware if may take you over 6 months to get a new block. I started collecting parts for my build in November and the blocks are still backordered to this day.
Click to expand...

Another option is a junkyard motor. I found a tbird 4.6 with 180k on it for $100. Machine work (hot tank, bore and hone) $180

TweekedGT said:
If you are going supercharger or turbo get some low compression dished pistons. I'd suggest 23cc-28cc dishes but ask the seller of the internals you are buying their suggestions and give them all of the information you have of where you want to be ultimately with the car.
Click to expand...

If you are going with a centri type supercharger it isn't recommened to drop the compression. It will be a dog out of the hole, and is best to leave it in the stock compression range.

TweekedGT said:
What type of crank is it? Most aftermarket internals come with 8 bolt forged Cobra cranks. Most GT's have a 6 bolt crankshaft. This means you will have to buy a new 8 bolt flywheel and it's a good idea to buy a new clutch when you buy a new flywheel. You will also need 2 new flywheel bolts, these are actually a pain to find.
Click to expand...
Again another option is the stock cast crank. The cast cranks are good to 600+ hp so most people on this board do not need the forged crank and only stand to add extra weight by using one.

TweekedGT said:
Make sure you get your internals balanced from the company you are buying them from, this will cost about $200-$300 extra. Get all of the main bearing, rod bearing, and piston ring clearances for your internals from the seller.
Click to expand...
If you use the cast crank it is a good idea to have it balanced at the machine shop you choose. But some have had no problems balancing only the rods and pistons if the weight is not substantially different than the stock ones.

TweekedGT said:
Fuel System:
1. Do I need to change my fuel system to compensate for my new power? If you are going for high horsepower ie. 400+ it is best you look at new injectors and a new fuel pump. Ask a performance shop what they would recommend for your application.
Click to expand...
Fuel system needs to be addressed far before 400hp.


I will also add if you are going to build a modular motor read this book. http://www.seanhylandmotorsport.com/online/product_info.php?cPath=57&products_id=952&osCsid=d1bd84b00a234d778ac4dbe06e4adcaa

It will take much of the guess work out of it.
 

RedDaemon

10 Year Member
Mar 31, 2005
3,470
9
108
Atlanta, GA
Apr 20, 2006
#9
  • Apr 20, 2006
  • #9
this thread has officially deterred me from building a block
 

RedDaemon

10 Year Member
Mar 31, 2005
3,470
9
108
Atlanta, GA
Apr 20, 2006
#10
  • Apr 20, 2006
  • #10
ADRENLN said:
and why does an intercooler limit your boost? i thought that you can go higher boost with the intercooler?
Click to expand...

TweekedGT said:
You need to decide if you are going intercooled as well. This will limit your boost potential.
Click to expand...

i think what he was trying to say that depending on which you choose, you might have a problem obtaining your HP goal
 

jstreet0204

Active Member
Jun 26, 2003
939
0
36
Winston Salem, NC
Apr 20, 2006
#11
  • Apr 20, 2006
  • #11
-=NightHawk=- said:
this thread has officially deterred me from building a block
Click to expand...

I wouldn't reccomend someone that has never built a motor before, just jump right in, but if you've built any kind of motor before, it isn't that much different. If you haven't maybe find a buddy who has. There is something VERY satisfiying about putting together a clean motor on an engine stand.
 

RedDaemon

10 Year Member
Mar 31, 2005
3,470
9
108
Atlanta, GA
Apr 20, 2006
#12
  • Apr 20, 2006
  • #12
jstreet0204 said:
There is something VERY satisfiying about putting together a clean motor on an engine stand.
Click to expand...

yea it is, thats why i want to do it
 

RedDaemon

10 Year Member
Mar 31, 2005
3,470
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108
Atlanta, GA
Apr 20, 2006
#13
  • Apr 20, 2006
  • #13
without trying to get too personal about the issue, if everything went to plan (which nothing really ever does) would you have saved money on the build than just buying a built block from a reputable place?

im trying to figure out a ballpark budget to see if this is possible for myself
 

jstreet0204

Active Member
Jun 26, 2003
939
0
36
Winston Salem, NC
Apr 20, 2006
#14
  • Apr 20, 2006
  • #14
-=NightHawk=- said:
without trying to get too personal about the issue, if everything went to plan (which nothing really ever does) would you have saved money on the build than just buying a built block from a reputable place?

im trying to figure out a ballpark budget to see if this is possible for myself
Click to expand...

I should come out cheaper. The cheapest forged short block I've found was CHP for around $1800, and I haven't heard really great things about their support. Plus you have to pay shipping on that which I'm sure is around $200.

I picked up some new hawks racing forged rods on ebay for $120
Used motor & machine work about $300
Forged pistons $500
$150 - $200 for balancing.
Another $100 or so for bearings.


That will pretty much put you where you would be getting a shortblock. Now on top of that you have to get the other things like head gaskets, bolts, oil and water pump, etc.
 

TweekedGT

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Jul 22, 2004
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Apr 20, 2006
#15
  • Apr 20, 2006
  • #15
jstreet0204 said:
Another option is a junkyard motor. I found a tbird 4.6 with 180k on it for $100. Machine work (hot tank, bore and hone) $180
Click to expand...

You wouldn't catch me buying a used junkyard motor for a 500+HP build. You get it down to the machine shop and find out it's warped. Not for me.

jstreet0204 said:
If you are going with a centri type supercharger it isn't recommened to drop the compression. It will be a dog out of the hole, and is best to leave it in the stock compression range.
Click to expand...

Not if your going to be running anywhere over 12PSI of boost. If you don't drop the compression I hope you can afford race fuel or gallons of octane boost.

jstreet0204 said:
If you use the cast crank it is a good idea to have it balanced at the machine shop you choose. But some have had no problems balancing only the rods and pistons if the weight is not substantially different than the stock ones.
Click to expand...

You should always get your entire rotating assembly balanced including the flywheel and harmonic balancer. If you want high horsepower don't cheap out on a few hundred bucks, it will cost you in the long run.


jstreet0204 said:
Fuel system needs to be addressed far before 400hp.
Click to expand...
I was running 290+ RWHP on a Mustang Dyno and my stock 19# injectors were nowhere near tapped out, but still never i bad idea to have to much fuel vs. too little.


jstreet0204 said:
I will also add if you are going to build a modular motor read this book. http://www.seanhylandmotorsport.com/online/product_info.php?cPath=57&products_id=952&osCsid=d1bd84b00a234d778ac4dbe06e4adcaa

It will take much of the guess work out of it.
Click to expand...

That's where I started actually. Doesn't have a lot of useful info that I found at least . Didn't have the most crucial info and it had nothing on stroker motors.

I probably should have been more specific with my post. This is for making high horsepower engines. When you are playing with power you cannot cheap out, you've got to know what you are getting into and be prepared to pay to play. Especially with these mod motors, they aren't cheap.
 

TweekedGT

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Jul 22, 2004
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Apr 20, 2006
#16
  • Apr 20, 2006
  • #16
-=NightHawk=- said:
without trying to get too personal about the issue, if everything went to plan (which nothing really ever does) would you have saved money on the build than just buying a built block from a reputable place?

im trying to figure out a ballpark budget to see if this is possible for myself
Click to expand...

This is a forged stroker remeber so if you are looking at strictly the same 4.6 displacement the numbers will be lower.

1. Forged rotating assembly $1900 (Includes forged stroker crank, forged pistons, forged rods, main bearings and rod bearings.)

2. Machining $500 - Includes bore, hone, decking, rod clearancing, crank clearancing and pretty much full blueprinting.

3. Balancing $300.

4. Gaskets and seal kits $150

5. ARP Main studs and Headstuds $300

6. New Flywheel $200 - you will need this either way.

A stroker shortblock from VT would have cost me $4500.
 

DropTopPony

Noob Slayer
Founding Member
Aug 13, 2002
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south jersey
Apr 20, 2006
#17
  • Apr 20, 2006
  • #17
building a forged shortblock sure sounds expensive
 

jstreet0204

Active Member
Jun 26, 2003
939
0
36
Winston Salem, NC
Apr 20, 2006
#18
  • Apr 20, 2006
  • #18
TweekedGT said:
You wouldn't catch me buying a used junkyard motor for a 500+HP build. You get it down to the machine shop and find out it's warped. Not for me.
Click to expand...
Not too likely that you are going to get a warped one. I don't see much more risk than using your existing block.

TweekedGT said:
Not if your going to be running anywhere over 12PSI of boost. If you don't drop the compression I hope you can afford race fuel or gallons of octane boost.
Click to expand...
That was straight of the SHM book I run a roots blower so I'll leave that one up the the experts.

TweekedGT said:
You should always get your entire rotating assembly balanced including the flywheel and harmonic balancer. If you want high horsepower don't cheap out on a few hundred bucks, it will cost you in the long run.
Click to expand...

Mine is being balanced. Others like Gearbanger101 didn't not balance the crank and have no issue. Obviously balancing will stand up to harsher conditions, but the factory balance is not all that.

TweekedGT said:
I was running 290+ RWHP on a Mustang Dyno and my stock 19# injectors were nowhere near tapped out, but still never i bad idea to have to much fuel vs. too little.
Click to expand...
BSFC's are different for n/a vs forced induction. You can stretch it out further n/a but you wouldn't make it much more than 320 or so before you'd need to at least upgrade the injectors.

TweekedGT said:
That's where I started actually. Doesn't have a lot of useful info that I found at least . Didn't have the most crucial info and it had nothing on stroker motors.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I didn't realize you were doing a stroker motor in the original post, but it does go into details on what to look for when you get the machine work done.

TweekedGT said:
I probably should have been more specific with my post. This is for making high horsepower engines. When you are playing with power you cannot cheap out, you've got to know what you are getting into and be prepared to pay to play. Especially with these mod motors, they aren't cheap.
Click to expand...

I'm definetly finding it more expensive than the pushrod motors I've built, but in all since with the route I'v taken, the whole project shouldn't cost me more than about 2k. I'm not doing a stroker either though.
 

tomustang

Psychotic Member
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#19
  • Apr 20, 2006
  • #19
jstreet0204 said:
There is something VERY satisfiying about putting together a clean motor on an engine stand.
Click to expand...
yup



 

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PonyboyIsaac

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#20
  • Apr 20, 2006
  • #20
TweekedGT said:
5. Always replace your water pump and oil pump with new ones when you take a motor apart. I would also suggest a new starter while you are at it if you have longtubes especially. That stupid starter is a pain to get at when you have longtubes and it would really suck to get everything back together and have that fail.
Click to expand...
I'm going forged in the summer of '07 so this advice is appreciated, i hadnt thought of replacing these parts u mention, but i will now
 
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