whats the down falls to a 351 clevland

Wootdog · Dec 13, 2005

so Iv noticed not to many people run clevland s just wondering what the big down falls of ruinnig . are not much on ford motors first one Ever owned thanks Josh

geostang351 · Dec 13, 2005

The problem with Clevelands is their availabilty. THey only made them for about 3-4 years. So parts are hard to come by.

DarkoStoj · Dec 13, 2005

SoCalCruising · Dec 13, 2005

Not many choices for speed parts in aftermarket - not like there are for the Windsor. Also, deck height of 9.2" (Windsor is 9.5") makes for fewer stroking options. They were prone to oiling problems,too, which can be solved, but which likely cause some to shy away. As said above, also much less plentiful.

rbohm · Dec 13, 2005

blocks also tend to crack in the cylinder wall area, and the cracks propogate down into the webs.

SoCalCruising · Dec 13, 2005

Really? I hadn't heard that one.

Wootdog · Dec 13, 2005

so what yall are saying id been better off having winsor darn the bad luck well this one is already built i didnt do it . so I dont know much about it al i know its been punch out 60 acording to the shop stamp on it back in 99 the car didnt have the freeze plugs in or carb on it so been putting it back togather it does have roller rockers and a real healthy cam in it starts and runs decent the speed shop said it sould push around 400 hp sounds kind of steep though so what would that make it cubic inches

DarkoStoj · Dec 13, 2005

SoCalCruising said:
Not many choices for speed parts in aftermarket - not like there are for the Windsor. Also, deck height of 9.2" (Windsor is 9.5") makes for fewer stroking options. They were prone to oiling problems,too, which can be solved, but which likely cause some to shy away. As said above, also much less plentiful.

dont let dodgestang hear you say that

snowball · Dec 13, 2005

Another downside of the cleveland over the windsor is its weight. It is quite a bit heavier than the windsor which, depending in what year Mustang you sit it in, can affect handling.

Scott_95GT · Dec 13, 2005

Wootdog said:
so what yall are saying id been better off having winsor darn the bad luck well this one is already built i didnt do it . so I dont know much about it al i know its been punch out 60 acording to the shop stamp on it back in 99 the car didnt have the freeze plugs in or carb on it so been putting it back togather it does have roller rockers and a real healthy cam in it starts and runs decent the speed shop said it sould push around 400 hp sounds kind of steep though so what would that make it cubic inches

:ZipIt:

Gud T.B. Blown · Dec 13, 2005

all of the parts needed to build a strong cleveland are readily available if you know where to look, except blocks. you can get aftermarket aluminum heads, one company even makes a 4 valve-per-cylinder head, stroker kits, cams, intakes, etc... cost and imagination are the only hinderances. don't forget than they still run a cleveland style head in nascar.

Gud T.B. Blown · Dec 13, 2005

Wootdog said:
so what yall are saying id been better off having winsor darn the bad luck well this one is already built i didnt do it . so I dont know much about it al i know its been punch out 60 acording to the shop stamp on it back in 99 the car didnt have the freeze plugs in or carb on it so been putting it back togather it does have roller rockers and a real healthy cam in it starts and runs decent the speed shop said it sould push around 400 hp sounds kind of steep though so what would that make it cubic inches

be careful of a cleveland block punched out .60 over. the max is supposed to be .40. you may run into overheating problems or worse.

Hack · Dec 13, 2005

The Cleveland is superior to the Windsor in many ways.

One reason there are fewer aftermarket parts for the Cleveland is that the factory 4V cast iron heads out perform most aftermarket heads available for the Windsor. However, there are great aftermarket parts out there for the Cleveland (check out AFD or CHI, also Funnelwebs!)

The Cleveland block is stronger than the Windsor block (stock vs. stock). There are aftermarket Windsor blocks available from Dart or World that are stronger, but that's an apple/orange comparison.

My info on Ford engine weights says the Cleveland engine subsystem weighs 457 pounds and the 351 Windsor engine subsystem weighs 448 pounds. Not sure if this is correct.

Oiling is only a problem over about 7k rpm, and there are well-known fixes for that. There are people revving well up over 7k rpm with their iron headed Clevelands. Are you going to rev your Windsor with factory heads over 7k rpm? I think not. The Windsor oiling is a superior design, but the issues can be overcome.

The main bearings in the Cleveland are made smaller in order to reduce the relative speed between the crank and bearing. This is a superior design for performance use.

The intake manifold on the Cleveland does not get coolant circulated through it. This is to keep the incoming F/A mix cooler for better performance - another superior design element.

Did I forget to mention canted valves??? The Cleveland's canted valves allow larger valves for better air flow - hence more power available.

Wootdog · Dec 13, 2005

thats what the stamp reads you guesse is as good as mine that is what ithought thats pushing it it seems to be runnin around 185to 195 temp wise so far if it gos build another ya know

Hack · Dec 13, 2005

Wootdog said:
so what yall are saying id been better off having winsor darn the bad luck well this one is already built i didnt do it . so I dont know much about it al i know its been punch out 60 acording to the shop stamp on it back in 99 the car didnt have the freeze plugs in or carb on it so been putting it back togather it does have roller rockers and a real healthy cam in it starts and runs decent the speed shop said it sould push around 400 hp sounds kind of steep though so what would that make it cubic inches

I have to second what pushrod power said. 060 over is unusual for a C block. Typically a sonic check of the cylinder wall thickness would be recommended. In my opinion it would be well worth your time to disassemble it and get the sonic check done.

It would really stink to wreck a bunch of new parts because there was a problem with the block. Find out now and you can get another block if necessary. They aren't that hard to find.

edit: OIC you already are running it. 195 is a great temp for it to be running. And you know new rebuilds usually run a little hotter until they are broken in. Might as well just drive and enjoy it now.

Z06killinSBF · Dec 13, 2005

Hack said:
The Cleveland is superior to the Windsor in many ways.

One reason there are fewer aftermarket parts for the Cleveland is that the factory 4V cast iron heads out perform most aftermarket heads available for the Windsor. However, there are great aftermarket parts out there for the Cleveland (check out AFD or CHI, also Funnelwebs!)

With that being said, would after market Clevland heads work better that after market Windsor heads on a windsor motor (289/302/351)?

DarkoStoj · Dec 13, 2005

Z06killinSBF said:
With that being said, would after market Clevland heads work better that after market Windsor heads on a windsor motor (289/302/351)?

cleveland heads aren't a direct bolt on. If I were to change heads I'd go with an aluminum head so i can run a higher compression on pump gas...but that's me.

Z06killinSBF · Dec 13, 2005

DarkoStoj said:
cleveland heads aren't a direct bolt on. If I were to change heads I'd go with an aluminum head so i can run a higher compression on pump gas...but that's me.

Ya, you have to get all the conversion stuff to make it work, but with that aside, would they be better?

Hack · Dec 13, 2005

Z06killinSBF said:
With that being said, would after market Clevland heads work better that after market Windsor heads on a windsor motor (289/302/351)?

The aftermarket Cleveland heads require a couple mods to work on a Windsor, but I believe that the companies that sell the heads have prepared for that.
http://www.chiheads.com/heads_10.html

My personal favorite, CHI heads all come with a provision for bolting them up to a Windsor block (see link above). There's a blurb on the left hand side. Remember that the deck height of any Windsor engine is different from the Cleveland, and so the width of the intake is also different. I believe that CHI also has spacers available to bolt an intake up.

I personally would not put 4V or aftermarket Cleveland heads on a 289/302 because they are pretty big. Your powerband is going to start upward of 3,000 rpm, I believe. This would be somewhat of a dog on the street. However, this is a Boss 302 setup and some people say that the Boss 302 was a great motor. Now if you had a stroker 408 or 427W with Cleveland 4V heads, that would be badass!!

What heads will work best with a given combo? I'm not sure, but I am 100% sure that the canted valves give C heads an advantage. Whether it's worth it or not, I don't know. It's probably cheaper to just go with Windsor aftermarket stuff and your performance should be close.

Hack · Dec 13, 2005

Z06killinSBF said:
Ya, you have to get all the conversion stuff to make it work, but with that aside, would they be better?

http://www.chiheads.com/main.html

You could read about how CHI heads were on the 700 horsepower pump gas Cleveland that won the Engine Master's competition.

I'm not sure if there were Windsor style competitors, but the winner was the Cleveland. You don't see articles in magazines about CHI because they are little guys that can't afford big ad campaigns. But they know Clevelands and their stuff works.

Now what you want in your daily driver is not what was put in an Engine Masters competition, but "better" doesn't really have to do with picking up groceries down the block, does it?

whats the down falls to a 351 clevland

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