Wondering if I was 'taken for a ride'...

Ice Cream Guru · Oct 22, 2018

Purchased my first classic car, just for fun drives, occasional local car shows, 1966 'A' coupe, modified cam, auto, disc power brakes, fog lights, dual exhaust, pony interior, clean, good paint, rust free, straight body, 2 1/2 years ago, from reputable local classic car dealer. The price of 20,000 fit in with estimation tools from Haverty and other similar vehicles I checked out at the time, so we made a deal. Had initial issue with it vapor locking, but eventually got that going. However, at the time, a different shop told me there were 'major problems' with the engine...this was 6 months after I purchased it. After the original shop took it back and fixed the vapor lock issue, I ignored the comments of the second shop, as they had fouled up the vapor lock issue so badly (I had told them that's what was going on when I took it in there - I am NOT a 'car guy', but I can read, and listen.) Now, I'm wondering.

Now I've been retired for a year, driving the car more, but still not lots - have put 9,000 miles on it in the time I've had it. Developed a bad oil leak, took it to a different local mechanic recommended to me as great with any classic car but especially Mustangs. He put it up on a lift, we could see it needed oil pan gasket. The bad news came today after he took off the oil pan - he says there's chunks of bearing and other debris in the pan, and the engine is obviously shot...as he put it, 'you can drive it locally, but I don't know for how long. It's not going to last.'

So- what I'm wondering - do I go back to the original dealer? He told me the car was 'strong', and that 'he'd drive it across the country in a minute' when I bought it. Could that kind of damage be expected when I'm driving the car like a baby, changing oil, etc, for only 9000 miles?

I know the car is over 50 years old, and there are no guarantees in life, and that purchasing a classic car doesn't come with a warranty, especially after 2 years. I also know that 20K is not a 'lot of money' in the classic car world, but it is to me and my wife, and the idea of dropping 5K or more into the car to replace the engine is something this retired guy is going to have a lot of trouble getting across to the still-working wife - if things remain status quo, I'm probably going to have to sell it, take a big loss, and forget the hobby, and I love the car.

The cars at the dealer go through what they call a 40-step check, and you may have the car inspected by a mechanic, which I did not (and now, of course, wish I had), and the dealer does have a solid reputation.

I'm just wondering...what some of you might think? Was the engine likely more worn than I was led to believe when I bought the car? Or could this have happened in the course of events as I've owned it? How much pressure, if any, should I be placing on the original dealer on this deal?

I'm not sure what to do, and want to get some feedback before I approach anyone.

Thanks for reading...

rbohm · Oct 23, 2018

when the engine is running, do you hear any knocking sounds coming from the bottom end? if not then go back to the mechanic that said there was chunks of bearing material in the pan, and have him show you any loose connecting rods. its possible that a PO did a freshening up of the motor putting new bearings and rings in, and didnt clean out the pan like they should have. either way if you come across the loose connecting rods, i would probably go ahead and get a crate motor and have someone install it for you.

i will say that these cars are simple enough that you can probably do the work yourself though, with the help of a buddy.

as for the dealer that sold you the car, not much you can do after all you have had the car for 2 1/2 years.

WORTH · Oct 25, 2018

Can't say I have ever had an engine with chunks of bearing in the pan that was quiet. Should be rapping up a storm. Where are you? Somebody here may know where you can get an honest appraisal of the engine condition. Me thinks they saw you coming...

Ice Cream Guru · Oct 25, 2018

I appreciate both replies, and welcome any others. I don't think the engine is making any noises that are exceptional. The mechanic that's working on it isn't looking for more work to do - he's not expecting to do the work himself. He's a local full time mechanic who works on cars on the side and came highly recommended by several guys I met at shows.

I was burning oil, but that should have been because of the leaky gasket. Another mechanic told me I'd 'need a ring job soon' based on what he observed/heard a few months ago, but that's when I had the leaky gasket and smoke was coming from under the hood, not sure how much he really looked at it (I was there to get the tail lamps fixed.)

I admit I was surprised when Brian shared this info, as the car doesn't run rough, or exhibit any knocking noise, etc. It's never idled well and the engine is noisy, to be sure - but in what I thought was a 'good' way.

He saved the pan material for me (he called as soon as he pulled it and said he'd leave it in place if I wanted to come see it, but he's 30 miles away, so I said a photo and the material itself was good enough). I'll be picking it up today and have another conversation with him - what can 'we' check? Can we check the connecting rods, as outlined above? Should I do a compression test?

Thanks for the advice, it's greatly appreciated.

Ice Cream Guru · Oct 25, 2018

I assume I can take it back to my original dealer if I feel I need another opinion...he's always been a straight shooter, which is one of the reasons I was surprised by this. I live in Mount Airy, Maryland, about 30 miles due west of Baltimore, 20 miles north of DC.

Woody3882 · Oct 25, 2018

Two issues gong on here. The mechanic that said he found "Chunks" of bearing is probably telling fairy tales to get the business. Did you actually see the chunks as he pulled the pan or were they in a cloth sitting on his work bench. I say that because we all know that if you had chunks of anything in your oil pan the car would not be running..
Second: you bought the car from a dealer, all they do is buy the cars as is from private parties, clean them and add ten grand to the price. Anything a dealer tells you is legally considered his opinion, If it is not in writing it doesn't mean anything. The only recourse is if you have a written warranty. I am sorry for your ill feelings in what should be a great experience. We all have been bitten by the Bull bug at least once. This August I paid 23K for a 65 from a private party. Before it even arrived I planned on it needing another 10K to meet my expectations. My opinion for you is to find a good reputable engine rebuilder, bite the financial bullet and have it done. Also do yourself a favor and get the transmission done at the same time. The only silver lining is that they are not as expensive as the modern cars because of the lack of electronics and gadgets. My trans was done before I bought it so I demanded the receipt and the companys info. After i confirmed it I found it was only $950 to rebuild and install a new converter also.
Nothing is ever as it appears..
Best of luck, it will be worth it in the end.
Woody

Ice Cream Guru · Oct 26, 2018

Thank you, Woody. As the shock had worn off, and I comprehend what you and the other great folks chiming in here had to say, I admit it sounds and feels weird that the engine basically SOUNDS okay if there's so much damage done. The mechanic came highly recommended by several classic car owners - one gentleman said this fellow has worked on his cars for years, and the other smaller tasks he's done (replacing the oil pump and the starter) were priced extremely well - and since he didn't even sound like he expected me to do the work with him (he knows my wife's patience is a bit thin when it comes to the car, and now that I'm retired, it's more of a joint decision than it was in the past, and it's just as likely I'd have to sell the car as is as to repair it), chicanery on his part seems fairly low as a probability (though certainly possible)...he DID say when he called that he hadn't yet wiped anything out of the pan if I wanted to see it, which I did not ask to do, and that he hadn't done any of the other work I'd asked him to do until I got his OK based on what he'd found. So I'm not sure what to make of all of this. (The car is still in his garage, ready for me to pick up, but it's going to be torrential rain here tonight and tomorrow, so it may be Sunday before I do.) I'm thinking a compression test done by a third party with no dog in the hunt?

Charlie Cheap · Oct 27, 2018

The only BEARING I can think of that could lose part of its material and still be relatively quiet, is a thrust bearing...maybe. I heard of this but have never seen it. Since the thrust bearing keeps things aligned front-to-back, a piece could be lost but enough still be there to keep things spinning. In any case, it needs replacing along with a complete engine inspection for damage the loose parts may have caused. I am an old ASE retired mechanic.

Wondering if I was 'taken for a ride'...

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