Would Advancing Stock Cams Give Me More Power?

iowabowhunter · Nov 3, 2013

Would advancing the stock PI cams give me any more low end or mid range power? I'm replacing the motor in my 01 GT due to a thrown rod. My plans are full or mid length headers, full exhaust, pullies, CAI gears and probably a tune. This would be perfect time to throw in some cams but the cost is holding me back. I've looked for a used set but they are hard to come by or the guys want new price for them. My goal is to run with stock 3v mustangs. Any suggestions?

Thanks

Deleted member 38176 · Nov 3, 2013

The tune can do this.

iowabowhunter · Nov 3, 2013

I was planing on degreeing them before I put the new motor in. Do people find a lot of variance in the stock units?

Deleted member 38176 · Nov 4, 2013

iowabowhunter said:
I was planing on degreeing them before I put the new motor in. Do people find a lot of variance in the stock units?

No. They are pretty much right on. The pre-03 4V's had some SLIGHT variance that a timing adjuster would help with, but the gains were pretty insignificant.

sneaky98gt · Nov 4, 2013

Nightfire said:
No. They are pretty much right on. The pre-03 4V's had some SLIGHT variance that a timing adjuster would help with, but the gains were pretty insignificant.

I think you're confusing ignition timing with cam timing.

OP, the stock cams do have a good amount of variance in them from the factory. So making sure they are right on what they should be will be beneficial. How beneficial? Probably not much, less than 10 horsepower for sure. You'll need the adjustable crankshaft gears from Trickflow to change the timing.

Mr. Rustypwnz · Nov 4, 2013

I degreed my stock cams on a teksid 2v engine a couple years ago. Just put them straight up. (stock they are way off!) It idled like silk and the powerband was much smoother. It picked up a tad amount of tq, but not much.

All in all, not worth it unless you are ocd.

Deleted member 38176 · Nov 4, 2013

sneaky98gt said:
I think you're confusing ignition timing with cam timing

Ahhhh yes, my bad

sneaky98gt · Nov 4, 2013

Mr. Rustypwnz said:
All in all, not worth it unless you are ocd.

Agreed.

Unless: you wanted to degree them in and also get experience/knowledge in doing so. I know that if I had the tools and adjustable gears to do it, and the engine was out of the car on a stand, I'd certainly want to do it just for that reason. BUT, if you don't have any of the parts needed (adjustable gears, cam degree kit, solid/adjustable lifter, etc.), it would be a rather expensive learning experience.

iowabowhunter · Nov 4, 2013

So the consensus here seems to be if sticking with the stock cams don't worry about it. What if I was going with a set of aftermarket cams? I "think" I have the tools as I have done this on push rod motors but I have not researched to see if there are any modular specific tools needed.

Mr. Rustypwnz · Nov 4, 2013

Aftermarket cams are a must to degree in. Anything over a comp 270 will hit the pistons if not right.

sneaky98gt · Nov 6, 2013

iowabowhunter said:
So the consensus here seems to be if sticking with the stock cams don't worry about it. What if I was going with a set of aftermarket cams? I "think" I have the tools as I have done this on push rod motors but I have not researched to see if there are any modular specific tools needed.

You will need an adjustable or solid lifter, and preferably a lightweight valve spring. MHS has a kit: http://www.modularheadshop.com/Tools/171020.aspx Kinda pricey, but I'm not sure where else to get an adjustable lifter.

Plus the usual: degree wheel, dial indicator/magnetic base, etc.

Mr. Rustypwnz said:
Aftermarket cams are a must to degree in. Anything over a comp 270 will hit the pistons if not right.

Yup, anything aftermarket needs to be degreed in. My cams were retarded 6 degrees from the machinist; think of how much power and low end torque would have been left on the table installed 6 degrees retarded. On the other hand, think of how bad the carnage would be if they were advanced 6 degrees instead.

iowabowhunter · Nov 6, 2013

sneaky98gt said:
You will need an adjustable or solid lifter, and preferably a lightweight valve spring. MHS has a kit: http://www.modularheadshop.com/Tools/171020.aspx Kinda pricey, but I'm not sure where else to get an adjustable lifter.

Plus the usual: degree wheel, dial indicator/magnetic base, etc.

Yup, anything aftermarket needs to be degreed in. My cams were retarded 6 degrees from the machinist; think of how much power and low end torque would have been left on the table installed 6 degrees retarded. On the other hand, think of how bad the carnage would be if they were advanced 6 degrees instead.

Off topic a bit but are you still running your SVO blower? I saw on another forum you had put down over 300 hp before the MHS cams on a dynojet. I have a change to pic up one complete brackets and all for around $1500. I know these kits were made for NPI motors but this one did come off of a PI motor and had ran well. It's a local deal and the guy has stepped up to a Tore Tech kit. I was thinking about going this route and forgetting about cams. Just having a bowl blend and gasket match along with a valve job done on the heads. With long tubes OR/H and exhaust I should be able to make the 300 rwhp mark and also have gobs of low end torque,,,don't you think??

sneaky98gt · Nov 7, 2013

iowabowhunter said:
Off topic a bit but are you still running your SVO blower? I saw on another forum you had put down over 300 hp before the MHS cams on a dynojet. I have a change to pic up one complete brackets and all for around $1500. I know these kits were made for NPI motors but this one did come off of a PI motor and had ran well. It's a local deal and the guy has stepped up to a Tore Tech kit. I was thinking about going this route and forgetting about cams. Just having a bowl blend and gasket match along with a valve job done on the heads. With long tubes OR/H and exhaust I should be able to make the 300 rwhp mark and also have gobs of low end torque,,,don't you think??

The PI and NPI versions of these blowers are exactly the same other than the shape of the intake port. And either version of the blower will fit on either of the heads, as long as the intake gasket used matches the blower and you watch the water jackets (sometimes they don't match up 100% and need a dab of RTV to make sure they don't leak).

Assuming it actually does have all the brackets, $1500 is a pretty good deal for one of these blowers. You'll still need injectors, a MAF, and a fuel pump. Should be able to get all three of those for less than $500. A throttle body and decent cold air intake (JLT or K&N) helps a good bit, too. On stock NPI heads, with stock PI cams, CAI, offroad Prochamber, it made a touch over 300 rwhp on the tires through the automatic transmission. That was with a 3.5" pulley running about 7 pounds of boost. A PI headed car would easily make 315, with a 5-speed making 325 or more. I ran 12.5-12.6 at 107-109 on the stock auto and rear gears. A 5-speed with gears, or an auto with a converter, should be able to push it well into the 12s. It definitely runs good for what it is, and is a ton of fun on the street.

Want it to go even faster? Get a water/meth kit to cool down the IATs and throw some timing at it. I pick up 7 mph at the track by just turning the water/meth on, which indicates nearly 75 more horsepower. Just the other day, I had the car retuned after porting the blower. It picked up 25 rwhp on the dyno from the porting, bringing it up to about 350 rwhp. And that's still through an auto. Throw in the extra 75 from the methanol (for some reason, it doesn't pick up power on the dyno when adding the methanol), and it's pushing every bit of 425 through the auto. Definitely ready to get back to the track to see how it runs. Hoping for mid-11s at 120+ mph!

iowabowhunter · Nov 7, 2013

sneaky98gt said:
The PI and NPI versions of these blowers are exactly the same other than the shape of the intake port. And either version of the blower will fit on either of the heads, as long as the intake gasket used matches the blower and you watch the water jackets (sometimes they don't match up 100% and need a dab of RTV to make sure they don't leak).

Assuming it actually does have all the brackets, $1500 is a pretty good deal for one of these blowers. You'll still need injectors, a MAF, and a fuel pump. Should be able to get all three of those for less than $500. A throttle body and decent cold air intake (JLT or K&N) helps a good bit, too. On stock NPI heads, with stock PI cams, CAI, offroad Prochamber, it made a touch over 300 rwhp on the tires through the automatic transmission. That was with a 3.5" pulley running about 7 pounds of boost. A PI headed car would easily make 315, with a 5-speed making 325 or more. I ran 12.5-12.6 at 107-109 on the stock auto and rear gears. A 5-speed with gears, or an auto with a converter, should be able to push it well into the 12s. It definitely runs good for what it is, and is a ton of fun on the street.

Want it to go even faster? Get a water/meth kit to cool down the IATs and throw some timing at it. I pick up 7 mph at the track by just turning the water/meth on, which indicates nearly 75 more horsepower. Just the other day, I had the car retuned after porting the blower. It picked up 25 rwhp on the dyno from the porting, bringing it up to about 350 rwhp. And that's still through an auto. Throw in the extra 75 from the methanol (for some reason, it doesn't pick up power on the dyno when adding the methanol), and it's pushing every bit of 425 through the auto. Definitely ready to get back to the track to see how it runs. Hoping for mid-11s at 120+ mph!

Actually the injectors are included 30#er's I think. Those are great numbers

sneaky98gt · Nov 8, 2013

iowabowhunter said:
Actually the injectors are included 30#er's I think. Those are great numbers

Oh ok, it includes the injectors, too? Makes the price even better. BUT, those 30 pounders will only be good to that 325-350 that I mentioned. They won't be able to go much farther than that. If you got serious with it, I'd go with some used 39 lb 03/04 Cobra injectors or 42 lb Lightning injectors, 90 mm Lightning MAF, and SVT Focus fuel pump.

Yea, it surely runs good. I love hearing people tell me that those blowers are worthless and can't make power and whatever. Then I go run an 11 second pass on stock PI heads and stock automatic transmission. LoL.

One other thing, if you do get one of those blowers. BE SURE to move the intake air temp sensor over to the blower. It is CRUCIAL that the computer know the actual temperature of the air going into the heads, and not just the temp of the air coming into the intake. There are a good number of threads out there about how to do this (it's really simple, especially with the blower off the car).

trombonedemon · Nov 8, 2013

So you all are telling me the cams are not degreed from the factory?

iowabowhunter · Nov 8, 2013

sneaky98gt said:
Oh ok, it includes the injectors, too? Makes the price even better. BUT, those 30 pounders will only be good to that 325-350 that I mentioned. They won't be able to go much farther than that. If you got serious with it, I'd go with some used 39 lb 03/04 Cobra injectors or 42 lb Lightning injectors, 90 mm Lightning MAF, and SVT Focus fuel pump.

Yea, it surely runs good. I love hearing people tell me that those blowers are worthless and can't make power and whatever. Then I go run an 11 second pass on stock PI heads and stock automatic transmission. LoL.

One other thing, if you do get one of those blowers. BE SURE to move the intake air temp sensor over to the blower. It is CRUCIAL that the computer know the actual temperature of the air going into the heads, and not just the temp of the air coming into the intake. There are a good number of threads out there about how to do this (it's really simple, especially with the blower off the car).

How loud is it (the blower) driving down the highway and "normal" around town driving?

iowabowhunter · Nov 8, 2013

trombonedemon said:
So you all are telling me the cams are not degreed from the factory?

Correct,,,,since these are mass produced engines Ford of course has tolerances. It's when all of these tolerances get stacked in the same direction that you get the large variances.

sneaky98gt · Nov 9, 2013

trombonedemon said:
So you all are telling me the cams are not degreed from the factory?

Not even close. I think they are +/- 5 degrees from the factory.

iowabowhunter said:
How loud is it (the blower) driving down the highway and "normal" around town driving?

Pretty much completely silent. You can hear a bit of a whistle with the hood open, but nothing while driving.

Would Advancing Stock Cams Give Me More Power?

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