Ya'll Seen This?
- Thread starter Noobz347
- Start date
jcgafford
10 Year Member
Saw it last night. They banned black talons years ago for supposedly doing half of what these things claim they do.
jcgafford
10 Year Member
I wouldn't mind having a couple boxes of these things. What I'd like even more is a box or two or just the bullets so that I can make my own rounds.
jetmech807
10 Year Member
Depends on how well it penetrates say.... A car door.
I've not heard of any pumpkins trying to take anyone out recently.
I've not heard of any pumpkins trying to take anyone out recently.
Okay, while I haven’t fired any of these, here’s just some reflections.
Number 1, the Black Talons were never “banned”. They changed the name, changed the color, and they’ve been available from your local WalMart.
Now, to these bullets . . .
Many problems abound with their claims, but let’s start with something simple . . . like physics.
The bullets are really small in mass. I mean, they’re SMALL even for a small round. After the fragments leave the main bullet, the thing actually penetrating in the direction that the bullet was aimed is smaller than a .22 Short bullet. It’s way smaller than a .22 LR with regards to mass. It’s going to have VERY little ability to penetrate deeply enough to do significant damage . . . and this is the projectile you’re actually aiming. Think about that for a moment. Let it sink in. By design, the smallest and least “deadly” part of the projectile . . . is the one you aim and have control of. The rest is completely random.
The fragments going off into all kinds of directions sounds good BUT it’s of questionable value. In an ideal world, they’ll leave at angles (like the videos show). So, if you’re aiming at something vital, they go AWAY from it. You aim at the heart, right? They’ll go around it. MAYBE they clip an artery . . . maybe not. Same thing for a head shot. MAYBE they penetrate the skull and get “something” . . . maybe not. The aimed projectile probably won’t penetrate effectively regardless.
One could argue some effectiveness if the ultra-lightweight projective was humping some serious velocity. It isn’t.
There’s a video of the round being “activated” by shooting into a balloon. If a balloon is resistance enough to bust the bullet, no way is it penetrating concrete, glass, and all that jazz. And you want that. Penetration is VITALLY important in stopping someone. And I don’t believe the claims that this thing penetrates 16+ inches of ballistic gel. I’m sure it may penetrate THEIR ballistic gel just fine, but I’m not sure about some that’s mixed per the instructions. I’ll start believing this stuff once some independent studies start rolling in. So far, I’ve seen ONE independent study, and they pretty much said performance was a joke.
Now, will this bullet make a mess of someone. Quite possibly, yes . . . it could. Could it kill? Well, sure, of course, but therein lies a huge problem when discussing self-defense rounds versus hunting rounds. With hunting rounds, you want 100% kills, BUT you don’t always need them to be immediate. If the deer lives 10 or 15 minutes and bleeds out, hey, all the better. The less blood inside, the better. If you have to track it 50 yards or so, who cares? It’s not shooting back. On the OTHER hand, for self-defense, you want that person to stop fighting back immediately. Dying 5 or 10 minutes later is pointless as the fight is over. You want them immediately incapacitated which entails shutting off the lights, shutting off the blood, or doing some other wound that convinces the person to stop fighting. The problem with this round is that it negates the “aimed” part as the straight on projectile is tiny, so if you get a good shot on nervous system or cranial targets, odds are it won’t matter. You’ll need to chance your way into a fragment doing something good. That’s something like instead of betting on your favorite driver you, instead, bet that EVERYONE ELSE will wreck, he won’t, and he’ll just win by default regardless of his performance. Meh.
Another real issue is that let’s say you hit someone with this in the gut. It’s a normally survivable shot, but they’re convinced to leave. The fragments, however, cut up both kidneys, shred part of a liver, and open up the stomach. Oh, it’s a hella fatal wound . . . 4 days later . . . well after the fight happened. Once the dude has stopped fighting and runs, technically you probably don’t want them to die. You REALLY don’t want them to die when they COULD have survived had you used conventional ammunition. It would be a legal nightmare.
Long story short, the main problem with these things is that the physics don’t add up. When you add in the fact that these bullets are designed to give you the best chance of getting a lucky shot INSTEAD OF getting a GOOD shot, eh, they’re just a gimmick someone is going to make a mound of money off of.
Oh, and they’re $2 a round. Yeah. $2 a round.
Number 1, the Black Talons were never “banned”. They changed the name, changed the color, and they’ve been available from your local WalMart.
Now, to these bullets . . .
Many problems abound with their claims, but let’s start with something simple . . . like physics.
The bullets are really small in mass. I mean, they’re SMALL even for a small round. After the fragments leave the main bullet, the thing actually penetrating in the direction that the bullet was aimed is smaller than a .22 Short bullet. It’s way smaller than a .22 LR with regards to mass. It’s going to have VERY little ability to penetrate deeply enough to do significant damage . . . and this is the projectile you’re actually aiming. Think about that for a moment. Let it sink in. By design, the smallest and least “deadly” part of the projectile . . . is the one you aim and have control of. The rest is completely random.
The fragments going off into all kinds of directions sounds good BUT it’s of questionable value. In an ideal world, they’ll leave at angles (like the videos show). So, if you’re aiming at something vital, they go AWAY from it. You aim at the heart, right? They’ll go around it. MAYBE they clip an artery . . . maybe not. Same thing for a head shot. MAYBE they penetrate the skull and get “something” . . . maybe not. The aimed projectile probably won’t penetrate effectively regardless.
One could argue some effectiveness if the ultra-lightweight projective was humping some serious velocity. It isn’t.
There’s a video of the round being “activated” by shooting into a balloon. If a balloon is resistance enough to bust the bullet, no way is it penetrating concrete, glass, and all that jazz. And you want that. Penetration is VITALLY important in stopping someone. And I don’t believe the claims that this thing penetrates 16+ inches of ballistic gel. I’m sure it may penetrate THEIR ballistic gel just fine, but I’m not sure about some that’s mixed per the instructions. I’ll start believing this stuff once some independent studies start rolling in. So far, I’ve seen ONE independent study, and they pretty much said performance was a joke.
Now, will this bullet make a mess of someone. Quite possibly, yes . . . it could. Could it kill? Well, sure, of course, but therein lies a huge problem when discussing self-defense rounds versus hunting rounds. With hunting rounds, you want 100% kills, BUT you don’t always need them to be immediate. If the deer lives 10 or 15 minutes and bleeds out, hey, all the better. The less blood inside, the better. If you have to track it 50 yards or so, who cares? It’s not shooting back. On the OTHER hand, for self-defense, you want that person to stop fighting back immediately. Dying 5 or 10 minutes later is pointless as the fight is over. You want them immediately incapacitated which entails shutting off the lights, shutting off the blood, or doing some other wound that convinces the person to stop fighting. The problem with this round is that it negates the “aimed” part as the straight on projectile is tiny, so if you get a good shot on nervous system or cranial targets, odds are it won’t matter. You’ll need to chance your way into a fragment doing something good. That’s something like instead of betting on your favorite driver you, instead, bet that EVERYONE ELSE will wreck, he won’t, and he’ll just win by default regardless of his performance. Meh.
Another real issue is that let’s say you hit someone with this in the gut. It’s a normally survivable shot, but they’re convinced to leave. The fragments, however, cut up both kidneys, shred part of a liver, and open up the stomach. Oh, it’s a hella fatal wound . . . 4 days later . . . well after the fight happened. Once the dude has stopped fighting and runs, technically you probably don’t want them to die. You REALLY don’t want them to die when they COULD have survived had you used conventional ammunition. It would be a legal nightmare.
Long story short, the main problem with these things is that the physics don’t add up. When you add in the fact that these bullets are designed to give you the best chance of getting a lucky shot INSTEAD OF getting a GOOD shot, eh, they’re just a gimmick someone is going to make a mound of money off of.
Oh, and they’re $2 a round. Yeah. $2 a round.
jcgafford
10 Year Member
my bad, should have said the name "black talons" was the no-no. a rebrand and a little color change and the big bad minority targeting bullets were right back on the shelf. but remember the news stories full of horror on what these magic bullets would do to inner city flesh? media hype at its best way back then. on another note i am totally with you on these things, they are probably garbage. but i still wants a box for fun.
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