your thoughts on my front suspension idea...

[wicked93gs]

your thoughts on my front steering idea...

ok, heres my dillema...I am using a 3.2L SHO v6 in my 66....the issue I am having is the stock steering will get in the way of the oil pan...and so will aftermarket racks like the tcp rack....the only viable option is the mustang II front end...but, the problem with that is that it will not give me the handling I want in this car...not to mention all kinds of people say it gives rise to chasis rigidity issues.

So here is my solution...tell me if it sounds viable...I take the stock disc spindles and swap the driver and passenger sides around....this puts the steering arm on the front of each spindle....with most conventional racks I believe this would probably lead to the rack and pinion moving the wheels in the wrong direction(maybe I'm thinking about it wrong...I dont know) anyway, to solve this...I use a steering rack designed for a mustang II conversion....effectively moving the rack and pinion up close to the swaybar, thus my steering system would now clear the oil pan...I'm sure I would have to make custom brake lines, but I needed to do that for the lincoln 8.8 disc rear anyway, so its no big deal....tell me if I am missing something that would make this impractical...from my thoughts I "should" be able to physicaly swap driver and passenger side spindles right?

 

[66Runt]

.

 

[wicked93gs]

well, according to what I read online, the caster shouldnt be a problem...at worst it will increase steering effort somewhat, turning radius should be roughly the same as a rack position at back I would think because the length of the arm is still the same...but I really dont know, which is why I am asking i guess...a good tech article on this would be appreciated, as for ackerman, I really dont understand it well, but it seems as if the main thing to remember is the steering arm end point should be in a direct line with the center hub pivot point and the rear diff....assuming the hubs are the same on each side then just by swapping them, I think it might move ackerman forward from the rear diff....but I guess I really dont know....I would like to go with the mustang II setup....but I think I'll order the rack first and fab a mount for it and see what this really does to handling...I actually want the open tracker stuff for this car, which is the main reason I am so reluctant to go mustang II, I'm really not even sure if swapping hubs will affect ackerman...I guess I just need to do it and run a straightedge of some type to find out

http://www.rctek.com/handling/ackerman_steering_principle.html

 

[bnickel]

you could use a set of mustang II spindles with granada rotors (to keep the 11" discs instead of the weenie stock 9.5" discs of the MII) and a custom rack mount or you could look at the AJE strut suspension system

http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=688668

this would solve all of your problems and give you a front steer rack as well.

 

[Gailahan]

Just run a MII front end and run two forward tubes from the firewall or roll cage if you're running one and attach them to the framerails by the front crossmember. The MII setup is an unequal length double a-arm suspension. Check out what Herb Adam says in his book titled Chassis Engineering. By having unequal length control arms the wheel gains negative camber as it travels upward, effectively keeping the oustide tire perpendicular to the ground to develop maximum cornering power. There are way to many critics of the MII setup, when in all actuality it is a very efficient cornering design. Sorry in advance for starting a flame war in this thread though as it usually happens whenever a MII front suspension is mentioned. Just make sure you brace the front end and it will corner and handle great and be light years ahead of the original design. You can accomplish a rack and pinion and disc brake swap all in one kit, in which the price can't be beat. Check out the kit from Heidts hot rod shop.

 

[mrmustangman357]

a little roll car triangulation on the MII will stiffen it right up. You can run a down bar from the firewall to the front of the frame rail, then triangulate another between the downbar and the rear of the frame rail, just behing the crossmember. it will be plenty strong. weren't you going to do this anyway so you can run good headers?

I wouldn't swap spindles, it sounds like an awful lot of engineering would get screwed up.

 

[69gmachine]

The MII setup is an unequal length double a-arm suspension. Check out what Herb Adam says in his book titled Chassis Engineering. By having unequal length control arms the wheel gains negative camber as it travels upward, effectively keeping the oustide tire perpendicular to the ground to develop maximum cornering power. There are way to many critics of the MII setup, when in all actuality it is a very efficient cornering design.

Herb Adams suspension book is a must read for anyone contemplating altering their front suspension from the factory design. But I wouldn't stop there. Once you start understanding the basics, do more research on your own.

IMO The MII suspension can be made to work fine, the biggest drawback being the major frame surgery that cannot easily be put back to stock. The other shortcoming of the MII is the very short spindle height. That effects the geometry of the instant center. However, you can remedy that with Wilwood's new taller MII based forged spindle. (No, I am not affiliated with Wilwood, but I saw those spindles and started salivating, trying to figure out how to make a rear steer arm for them).

 

[wicked93gs]

will a mustang II spindle fit a '66? even one of those taller wilwood units? because if so, that would seem to be the simplest solution...I would really like to be able to put it back to stock if I ever chose to do so, my measurement on stock spindles is a 7" height...anyone know what height a mustang II spindle is?

 

[wicked93gs]

just togive you guys an idea of what I am working around here....

 

[DukeGnarley]

It's kind of hard for me to tell from the pictures, but couldn't you just modify the pan to make room for the steering? also, i think most rack and pinion kits mount where the bolted on cross member goes, if that would give you any extra clearance.

 

[bnickel]

will a mustang II spindle fit a '66? even one of those taller wilwood units? because if so, that would seem to be the simplest solution...I would really like to be able to put it back to stock if I ever chose to do so, my measurement on stock spindles is a 7" height...anyone know what height a mustang II spindle is?

the mustang II spindle will bolt to the 66 upper and lower control arms (ball joint taper is the same for both), from there everything will need to be custom made.

 

[Gailahan]

will a mustang II spindle fit a '66? even one of those taller wilwood units? because if so, that would seem to be the simplest solution...I would really like to be able to put it back to stock if I ever chose to do so, my measurement on stock spindles is a 7" height...anyone know what height a mustang II spindle is?

You're already doing some extensive modifications from the SHO Engine to all the other custom work that you're doing. Why do you need to be able to revert back to stock? I really hope resale isn't the reason that you're afraid of being able to revert back to stock.... You are doing all this custom work, it seems silly to reverse it all. The MII front suspension uses a rear sump oil pan which is what you need and it places the steering in front of the crossmember and spindles. You will have absolutely no clearance issues at all to worry about.

 

[mikethebike]

Herb Adams suspension book is a must read for anyone contemplating altering their front suspension from the factory design. But I wouldn't stop there. Once you start understanding the basics, do more research on your own.

IMO The MII suspension can be made to work fine, the biggest drawback being the major frame surgery that cannot easily be put back to stock. The other shortcoming of the MII is the very short spindle height. That effects the geometry of the instant center. However, you can remedy that with Wilwood's new taller MII based forged spindle. (No, I am not affiliated with Wilwood, but I saw those spindles and started salivating, trying to figure out how to make a rear steer arm for them).

Would you be able to reverse them...i.e., left to right and vice-versa?

 

[wicked93gs]

thank you Bnickel, thats a very useful piece of info there...it saves me having to hack up my frame and will allow me to use the control freak stuff...or open tracker, or similar setups, mikethebike...as for reversing them, I was going to try it...but before I did I happed to have a pair of vw bug spindles sitting around from when I upgraded my bug's front brakes to disc, the bug spindles are rear steer as well, after laying it out on the ground, I noticed that any rear steer spindle used in a front steer application will cause the ackerman to be so far off I suspect the car would be completely undriveable(looks to be 45 degrees or more) gailahan, no, I do not plan on returning the mustang to stock...ever...however the SHO engine is obsolete and parts are hard to find and expensive(just stuff for a basic engine rebuild, not including pistons, rings, oil pump, water pump or idler pulleys...in other words, gaskets and bearings...cost me $700) so at some point in the future I will no longer be able to get all the parts I need for a rebuild....when that time comes I plan on swapping engines...since I started this project with a SHO engine...the only other distant cousin still being made is the Yamaha 4.4L DOHC v8 being used in the Volvo XC90(311HP and 325ft/lb) and if its not obsolete by that time, that will be chosen upgrade for this engine....anyway to make a long story short, my chosen possible upgrade engine is roughly the same width as the SHO engine and I see no reason to hack up my mustang to fit either engine, I have to make headers, yes...but I had to do that anyway for the planned twin turbos, since from everything I read I can also get better handling from global west stuff than a mustang II conversion, it seems to me I'm better off sticking with the stock setup

So...here is my hopeful parts list....
Mustang II spindles...there are a ton out there to chose from...including 2" drop spindles...giving me an extra lowering option for my car...$200 or so
Mustang II front steer rack and pinion unit...again, a ton out there to chose from but I suspect one made for a mustang II conversion might work the best ....another $200 or so
Global West upper and lower control arms+strut rods(other options being control freak or open tracker)
roller spring perches
Shelby drop
Undecided on front sway bar
Flaming river steering column
Custom front frame connector/steering rack mount...I'll mount it in front of the shock tower rails rather than behind like stock...with any luck I'll be able to work around the sway bar

 

[bnickel]

i'd try to find a set of cheap used stock M-II spindles at a wrecking yard or on ebay or smoething before i spent a lot of money on a set of new/drop spindles though, just in case it didn't work as expected.

 

[tweet66]

There's an article in an old Mustang's Illustrated where they took a 67 coupe and cut the towers out but left the factory mounts and the portion of the tower they attach to. The tower was replaced with a modified piece of 1/2" steel I-beam, cut and fit 1" outward from the org. tower location. Shorter tubular upper control arms (from Afco) replaced the orginals and made up for the outward movement of the tower. It was similar to the MII setup visually but allowed the use of original parts, for the most part, and made lots of room for the headers and engine combo they were running. Just an option

 

[69gmachine]

will a mustang II spindle fit a '66? even one of those taller wilwood units? because if so, that would seem to be the simplest solution...I would really like to be able to put it back to stock if I ever chose to do so, my measurement on stock spindles is a 7" height...anyone know what height a mustang II spindle is?

The MII spindle is 7 11/16 from flat to flat, the original Mustang (65-73) spindle is 8 9/16. The new Wilwood is 8 1/4 IIRC... (won't swear to it but that's pretty close). You would need to drop the mounting point for the uca quite a bit to maintain proper geometry with a stock MII spindle.

 

[wicked93gs]

ok, so maybe the wilwood spindle and a shelby drop will take care of it? or perhaps a stock mII spindle and a lower-than-shelby drop?(who knows what that would require as far as springs go...but it might be workable) or some combination of both?

p.s. can someone send me a link to the wilwood spindles? I cant seem to find them...all I can find is their drop spindles and I'm not sure those are the same

 

[bnickel]

The MII spindle is 7 11/16 from flat to flat, the original Mustang (65-73) spindle is 8 9/16. The new Wilwood is 8 1/4 IIRC... (won't swear to it but that's pretty close). You would need to drop the mounting point for the uca quite a bit to maintain proper geometry with a stock MII spindle.

good point, i didn't think about that. i'd think with the tall wilwood spindles and probably a 1-3/4" shelby style drop he'd come pretty close, heck it might even work ok doing the 1-3/4" drop and the stock M-II spindles.

 

[bnickel]

There's an article in an old Mustang's Illustrated where they took a 67 coupe and cut the towers out but left the factory mounts and the portion of the tower they attach to. The tower was replaced with a modified piece of 1/2" steel I-beam, cut and fit 1" outward from the org. tower location. Shorter tubular upper control arms (from Afco) replaced the orginals and made up for the outward movement of the tower. It was similar to the MII setup visually but allowed the use of original parts, for the most part, and made lots of room for the headers and engine combo they were running. Just an option

i remember that article, in fact i keep it in the magazine rack in the bathroom but probably because i'm too lazy to change out magazines, LOL. still though it was a pretty good article.