Z06 vs GT500 (rant)

That question, I can't answer. I don't have the intel to discuss the finer points of design to dealership. However, the Cobra has always been at it's base a V6 chassis with patchwork improvements ... it never has, nor should be compared to the Corvette.

Different platforms. Base Mustang does not remotely equal a base Corvette.

I'm sure several months from now, plenty of rumors, speculation and innuendo will spread through the www as to WHY it took so long.
Until then ... like you, I'll wonder what is really going on in FORD HQ?

Black94Cobra said:

I was just trying to say the ZO6 is a substantially upgraded car over a base c6. Isn't the GT500 a warmed up gt? I wasn't comparing Mustang's price or perfomance to Corvette's just the difference in time from base model release to upraded model release.

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To echo what Blk_roush said.

The difference is that in the case of the Z06 you're starting with a $40K car and upgrading it to a 70K car.

With the Mustang you're starting with a $20K car and upgrading it to a $40K car.

Also, you don't really know how long GM's been working on the Z06, which is probably a lot longer than you think.

Also figure in that GM is working with a car with a totally different budget. Time is money and GM probably spent a lot more money on the Z06 than Ford allocated to the gt500. Therefore they may have had more resources which speeds up the process of development.

Find one for 70K. It's more like 90K at the dealership. As mentioned there is no comparison between the 40K Cobra and the new Z06.

Trublu01 said:

Find one for 70K. It's more like 90K at the dealership. As mentioned there is no comparison between the 40K Cobra and the new Z06.

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My buddies boss just got one for sticker! Bad ass car. They are making 450rwhp stock with just 3100lbs to move... with a airbox and exhaust they are making 485rwhp.. I bet the GT500 will make power very close to the same stock vs stock. But the car will weigh 500 lbs more... but with mods will make BIG power.

Black94Cobra said:

Isn't the GT500 a warmed up gt? I wasn't comparing Mustang's price or perfomance to Corvette's just the difference in time from base model release to upraded model release.

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Yes, I see your point the GT500 is just a warmed up GT.

But there are two issues that I feel have worked against a quick release of this vehicle by Ford.

#1 Ford's SVT is virtually out of business. They are understaffed and under-funded and are taking a backseat with the GT500's development

which leads us to >>

#2 Ford has partnered themselves with Carroll Shelby International, Inc.

Having a corporate partner who doesn't report to Bill Ford has not accelerated matters / Shelby is reportedly taking the lead on development and has had significant input into the design and even the road testing.

In short, they have their own agenda and timetable.

Its not like the old days!

Black94Cobra said:

I was just trying to say the ZO6 is a substantially upgraded car over a base c6. Isn't the GT500 a warmed up gt? I wasn't comparing Mustang's price or perfomance to Corvette's just the difference in time from base model release to upgraded model release.

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All understood, as mentioned here .... FORD's re-organization of SVT is reason enough not expect a quick product release. In truth, every upgraded mustang built is a 'warmed up' version of the base model.
Although it may be exciting times for future, present and past Mustang owners with the unveiling of the GT500, FORD has chosen not the capitalize on that excitement.

A few reasons:

1. SVT, like mentioned above, is underfunded and understaffed. It also changed upper management recently. None of that helped. The Ford GT took a lot out of them also.

2. The Cobra is a GT with a more powerful and larger engine (which took longer to create than the GM 7.0L) and trans, upgraded suspension consisting of revised shocks, changed spring rates, upgraded stabilizer bars (with changed bushings), added shock-tower bracing and an additional structural "K-Member", which all had to be extensively track tested and race tested (and capable of pulling close to 1G in an almost 4,000lb car stock, and capable of pulling over a G with aftermarket tires), upgraded wheels and tires, upgraded interior, slightly redesigned exterior and other visual accessories (new hood), new brakes, as well as other improvements. All for less than $20,000 over the base GT. It isn't quite as simple as dropping a new motor in and driving it around the track once or twice. You don't have as much leeway with a $40,000 sporty 4-seater car as you do with a $70,000 all out sports car.

3. They wanted to see how well the new mustang sold to predict the number of GT500s to make and what it would take to get people to buy them. A lot of research before they build.

4. Carroll Shelby's involvement, the man doesn't exactly work too fast anymore and he does have a large say in this car. He isn't just sticking his name on it.

5. Hype. The longer you hold out and the less you announce the more hype you create. The game is to hold out as long as possible without making people too angry.

6. Waiting for the right time to release it. Ford doesn't want the sale of cars like the Charger, GTO, M3, Z06, ect to effect the GT500's sales at all.

7. They want to wait until mustang fever slows down, then release a version like the GT500 to bring the fever back. When you release a high performance car it picks up sales of the base model.

I'm sure I missed a few other reasons too. Anyway, the C6 Z06 has been in the works since the C5-R and was developed side by side with the C6-R, which was released for the first time in the beginning of this year. So, the C6 Z06 itself has been in developement for atleast 2 years and the engine for atleast 4 years. 3.5 years really isn't that bad.

I'm not a big corvette guy, but it's hard to not like the Z06. This car is a F-ing beast. It's amazing how the manufacturers can develop big HP cars and still have emissions and economy, it's unreal and you wonder when and if it will ever end.

I was thinking about getting a Shelby but I really have a problem with spending the money that a Shelby will command and still have a car with an iron block and a solid rear axle suspension. That's going back to when I had a 89 LX 5.0L and my current summer ride a 96 Formula.

If we are talking stk vs. stk there's no comparsion, a Shelby if and when it comes out will never touch a Z06. The Z06 vette is superior to it in every way, handling, braking and the overall package (dry sump oiling, IRS, alum. frame, mag engine cradle, alum. block...and on and on) and remember it makes the power NA (with a larger displacement).

Yes it does cost more than what a Shelby will go for but for me if I was going to spend the money on a Shelby I'll save up a bit more and get the Z06 instead. Which is exactly what I'm doing since I plan to get one in the near future.

BTW, if you haven't seen this yet take a look:

http://srika.com/video/GLDc6z06.wmv

Tony

I was never a huge Vette fan either, but I would buy a Z06 (I would if I didn't have the Viper). The Shelby and Z06 are very different animals though. A Z06 is not something most people will buy to drive everyday. It is a sports car for pretty much sunny day driving and having fun. The GT500 offers a very high level of performance, for not a ton of money, in a four seater that could be driven everyday. Because it is supercharged you can get amazing HP/TQ numbers cheap, much cheaper than you could do with a N/A engine. However, if you have the $$ you can make a larger N/A engine more powerful than a smaller S/C engine.

All in all, it comes down to: The GT500 is the best bang for your buck, while the Z06 is the best bang.

However, I was thinking about this from the beginning of this thread. Having both a 1994 Viper RT/10 and 2003 Mustang Cobra, my Cobra has 3,000miles on it since I bought it, while the Viper has 4,000 total since new. The Viper is definately the faster and better handling car, but I couldn't care less now. I personally have more fun with the Cobra. It's more practical, it was half the price yet performs almost as well, and I can actually park it somewhere and not worry about someone jumping in it or touching it. When I was younger I always thought the fastest, best handling, most expensive car was the best. Now, as i'm older, I find it is best to match a car to personality, uses, ect. I now realize why my grandfather, who could have bought a Rolls Royce back in the 50's, decided to stick with his beat up old truck. It did everything he needed and more.

I guess when it comes down to cars there is one out there for everybody, you just have to find the one that fits you.

Cman said:

Yes it does cost more than what a Shelby will go for but for me if I was going to spend the money on a Shelby I'll save up a bit more and get the Z06 instead. Which is exactly what I'm doing since I plan to get one in the near future.

BTW, if you haven't seen this yet take a look:

http://srika.com/video/GLDc6z06.wmv

Tony

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A bit more? The price is nearly double.

SVTdriver said:

A bit more? The price is nearly double.

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Maybe in the states since Ford has said it will try to keep the Shelby around US$40k and the Z06 goes for like US$68k and change.

Here in Canada I've talked to SVT dealers and while they can't confirm a price for the Shelby they feel it will be around CAN$65-70k, a Z06 here goes for CAN$89,900 MSRP. That's way less than nearly double.

Since the Ford isn't even avail yet and the Z06 is avail. now my money stays in my account earning interest as I save up more for the Z06, when I'm ready to buy I'll have more than a major deposit to put down on the vehicle.

Remember that even though you are spending more money on a Z06 vs. a Shelby keep in mind the materials and technology that goes into a Z06 as mentioned in my above post, it's worth the price difference to me.

Tony

Cman said:

Maybe in the states since Ford has said it will try to keep the Shelby around US$40k and the Z06 goes for like US$68k and change.

Here in Canada I've talked to SVT dealers and while they can't confirm a price for the Shelby they feel it will be around CAN$65-70k, a Z06 here goes for CAN$89,900 MSRP. That's way less than nearly double.

Since the Ford isn't even avail yet and the Z06 is avail. now my money stays in my account earning interest as I save up more for the Z06, when I'm ready to buy I'll have more than a major deposit to put down on the vehicle.

Remember that even though you are spending more money on a Z06 vs. a Shelby keep in mind the materials and technology that goes into a Z06 as mentioned in my above post, it's worth the price difference to me.

Tony

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If it is MSRP for $40k here. Then isn't that a very large add-on price for canada? I mean even with the exchange rate. It's about $22k more for the Z06. While it would be a minimum of $25k more for a cheaper Shelby. I'm not saying it won't happen. But the math the dealers are giving you just doesn't seem to add up.

Yes the technology that goes into the Z06 is impressive. But my question is this. How much more is that technology going to add to maintenance/repair costs in the long run?. Obviously warrantee and insurance will cover things for a while. But I'm sure repair it in an accident will not be cheap. Since I'm sure ferrari's with their aluminum frames are not cheap either.

SVTdriver said:

If it is MSRP for $40k here. Then isn't that a very large add-on price for canada? I mean even with the exchange rate. It's about $22k more for the Z06. While it would be a minimum of $25k more for a cheaper Shelby. I'm not saying it won't happen. But the math the dealers are giving you just doesn't seem to add up.

Yes the technology that goes into the Z06 is impressive. But my question is this. How much more is that technology going to add to maintenance/repair costs in the long run?. Obviously warrantee and insurance will cover things for a while. But I'm sure repair it in an accident will not be cheap. Since I'm sure ferrari's with their aluminum frames are not cheap either.

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I wish it was like that here but unfortunately that's not the case. The Shelby will be considered a limited production vehicle, much more so here than in the US. Which makes the price for Z06 here in Canada a major bargain considering what you are getting in the car.

You know what they say, you buy what you can afford, and that doesn't mean just the cost of purchasing the vehicle but cost of maintaining, repair, and insuring the vehicle we work our butts of to buy. Just because I can buy a Porsche for example doesn't mean I can afford to maintain it.

Cheers.

Tony

Cman said:

I wish it was like that here but unfortunately that's not the case. The Shelby will be considered a limited production vehicle, much more so here than in the US. Which makes the price for Z06 here in Canada a major bargain considering what you are getting in the car.

You know what they say, you buy what you can afford, and that doesn't mean just the cost of purchasing the vehicle but cost of maintaining, repair, and insuring the vehicle we work our butts of to buy. Just because I can buy a Porsche for example doesn't mean I can afford to maintain it.

Cheers.

Tony

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Oh I definately understand. It seems when you tell them the part is for a Cobra. It goes up about $100. I thought that canadians dealers were bound by law not to charge more than MSRP for the car. Did not know that did not apply to limited production.

Cman said:

Maybe in the states since Ford has said it will try to keep the Shelby around US$40k and the Z06 goes for like US$68k and change.

Here in Canada I've talked to SVT dealers and while they can't confirm a price for the Shelby they feel it will be around CAN$65-70k, a Z06 here goes for CAN$89,900 MSRP. That's way less than nearly double.

Since the Ford isn't even avail yet and the Z06 is avail. now my money stays in my account earning interest as I save up more for the Z06, when I'm ready to buy I'll have more than a major deposit to put down on the vehicle.

Remember that even though you are spending more money on a Z06 vs. a Shelby keep in mind the materials and technology that goes into a Z06 as mentioned in my above post, it's worth the price difference to me.

Tony

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$65-70? ouch, have you tried talking to any dealers outside of Ontario? i've heard that around Toronto they'll try and do you dry because they have enough demand. the dealership i've talked to says their philosophy for the SVT products is they'd rather have them all disappear in clouds of smoke the first day they arrive, than have them sit on the lot.

I think the new Zo6 is in a whole other league above that of the GT500. The GT500 should be compared to the regular C6. Heres a little something I put together, I know alot of you guys dont like magazine racing but here is some nice info u all know already but its fun to look at. The GT500s estimated performance numbers are my own estimations, I just want to see how close I am when they finally do test it.

2007 Ford Mustang Cobra Shelby GT500:
Passengers: 4
Engine: 5.4L Supercharged V8
Transmission: 6 speed manual
Power:450+ horsepower
Torque: 450 lb-ft
Curb weight :3600 lbs
Power to weight ratio 8 lbs per horsepower
Estimated performance: 0-60 4.3 sec, 1/4 mile 12.6 sec
Estimated price: $35,000-$39,000

2005 Corvette C6 (with Z51 performance package option):
Passengers:2
Engine: 6.0L V8
Transmission: 6 speed manual
Power: 400 horsepower
Torque: 400 lb-ft
Curb weight: 3300 lbs
Power to weight ratio: 8.3 lbs per horsepower
Performance*: 0-60 4.3 sec, 1/4 mile 12.8 sec@ 112
Price: $44,510 base coupe
Price as tested: $46,010(upgraded with $1,500 Z51 performance package for best track results)

2005 Pontiac GTO:
Passengers: 4
Engine: 6.0L V8
Transmission: 6 speed manual
Power: 400 horsepower
Torque: 400 lb-ft
Curb weight: 3787 lbs
Power to weight ratio: 9.5 lbs per horsepower
Performance*: 0-60 4.8 sec, 1/4 mile 13.3 sec @ 107
Price: $32,995
Price as tested: $33,500

2003-2004 Ford Mustang SVT Cobra:
Passengers: 4
Engine: 4.6L Supercharged V8
Transmission: 6 speed manual
Power: 390 horsepower
Torque: 390 lb-ft
Curb weight: 3738
Power to weight ratio: 9.6 lbs per horepower
Performance*: 0-60 4.5 sec, 1/4 mile 12.9 sec @ 111
Price: $34,750
Price as tested: $35,345

* All performance Data was compiled from CAR AND DRIVER magazine

fullsadg, I didn't check any SVT dealers outside of Ontario but I did phone some dealers in different cities within Ontario and outside of the GTA area they were more inline AFA taking deposits for the Shelby.

In the GTA area SVT dealers claimed that they have their allotment of Shelbys already spoken for when I contacted them back in Aug. and those people had put deposits down as much as $3000 to be on the list for the car when it is avail..........again with no price announcement as to what the car may go for. They even had a waiting list of people to go on the waiting list if and when someone dropped out of the first list if they didn't want the Shelby, it's nuts.

Some SVT dealers I called outside the GTA area within Ontario were more inline, asking only for a $1000 deposit to be on the list and guaranteed a Shelby when they arrive, but all dealers say the cars would go for the $65-70k figure mentioned.

I actually got lucky and found a SVT dealer in Mississauga (near Toronto) asking for a $1000 deposit to be on the list and guaranteed delivery of a Shelby after doing so. I was going to do it back in Aug. but started researching the Z06 when it was announced to be produced and decided to keep my money in the bank for now and start saving more.

Tony