65mm-70mm tb

[Killercanary]

I run a 65mm TB.

I wonder what would happen if I ran a "big dog" of a TB...


Out of all the available T-bodies available for the 94-95 the FMS 65mm is the best QUALITY piece you can buy and that is why I went with it. I also bought it when I had the stock heads and cam on the car though.

 

[nmcgrawj]

I thought this was a mustang site and we were talking about h/c/i on these mustangs... ...I guess were talking about every car...

Why didn't you mention the weight factor on the track? gears? suspension? etc...? Hmm...looks like there is two sides to that...

AGAIN...where did I say the track doesn't matter? Would you please quit twisting peoples words up...your as bad as snoozer IMO...

Now you realize I just make up stuff right ...oh and I've talked with Ed (look at sig.)...

Your arguments aren't very concrete...in fact it hasn't even been mixed yet ...try again...

Again if your going to post...don't do the childish namecalling (earlier) and don't twist up what I type out...(past, present, and probably the future)...

Very well said white94cobra...very well said..."some people just don't listen"...with personal experience...but I guess everyone has access to a dyno/custom cam right?...um...no...

Again as I stated...the lower torque suffered and the bucking (driveability) problem can occur and has occured...funny how that is exactly what it did on my cousin's 90 Gt...maybe that is where I got my infamous concoction...or maybe it was from others...geee...I don't know

Dude give it up. You said "A dyno shows the real potential of a car...not a track time..." and thats wrong. A track time will not show the true potential? The track will show you all the changes...gearing...weight....driving...etc where a dyno will not. What does the dyno measure? The CAR? Or the ENGINE? I thought the dyno measures the engine and the track measures the car. Maybe im wrong...its VERY possible b/c i am new to the game. But regardless, I guess you were really hurt/offended by me referring to people in this thread as "chumps" in such a hostile way. Wow, i didn't know i was serious and that i meant for u to take offense to it. No one else did...why did u ? You shouldnt take this internet stuff so seriously. Relax dude

It doesn't matter what else you have to say....Lets drop it. Its over. Its a done deal.

 

[GTJake]

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[5spd GT]

Dude give it up. You said "A dyno shows the real potential of a car...not a track time..." and thats wrong. A track time will not show the true potential? The track will show you all the changes...gearing...weight....driving...etc where a dyno will not. What does the dyno measure? The CAR? Or the ENGINE? I thought the dyno measures the engine and the track measures the car. Maybe im wrong...its VERY possible b/c i am new to the game. But regardless, I guess you were really hurt/offended by me referring to people in this thread as "chumps" in such a hostile way. Wow, i didn't know i was serious and that i meant for u to take offense to it. No one else did...why did u ? You shouldnt take this internet stuff so seriously. Relax dude

It doesn't matter what else you have to say....Lets drop it. Its over. Its a done deal.

You missed the whole point of dyno vs. track...it is funny how a couple of you brought up gains on the dyno with a "big" TB...but then try to relate the findings by just track times...

Both dynos/track times can vary at different times because of many variables...

Killercanary...I'm glad I'm not the only one running a FMS 65mm TB...I almost thought I was alone for a bit there...oh wait...no I didn't I would say that 65mm TB is hurting you

Oh and nmcgrawj I will never throw out the 65mm TB "idea"...I will always argue the point...I never give it up until its locked...some people don't get the hint...

It is funny how the thread all of a sudden needs to be because a couple guys brought up the 65-70mm TB's?...

If you have the "bigger is better" advise...good for you...and I thought I was misleading?

Am I correct all the time...NO!...

Good Luck with everyones TB's...I'd spend my money elsewhere...

 

[Joes95GT]

Why did I say "I'm done" to this?!

I determine personally by the approximate hp the car will be pushing and what is the primary goal of the car...I do not jump in and say 75mm all the way...I look at what is being run...(street/track/coupe/vert/possible power/etc...)...

Throttle bodies aren't custom parts, and shouldn't be treated as such. They're an inanimate object with a cord connect connecting to the gas pedal controlling how "big" the hole gets. It's truly that simple. There is no need to "determine the goal of the car." Throw a 75mm on it and be done with it. Yes, I said it.

Next topic: Dyno numbers.

Dyno numbers are VERY misleading in this case, and should not be used for a basis of comparison between two parts. Why? Because they do not measure how a car ACCELERATES. Nothing measures acceleration besides a timer.

In fact, I knew someone was going to come in here spouting off about magazine tested dyno numbers or possibly even testing they did themselves. I'll recite what I posted earlier:

I was reading a thread a few days ago on one of those "other" websites where Jay Allen (Ed Curtis' "rival," for lack of a better term) said a switch from 1.6:1 roller rockers to 1.7:1 yielded a 7 RWHP loss. Guess how that affected the car? It went a tenth and a half faster. Let's get our heads out of the magazines, fellas.

Next topic:

With the cam I chose the everyday driveability with the 75mm makes my car buck

How in the hell are you attributing a car's "bucking" problems on a switch to a different size throttle body, which presumably (because nothing was said otherwise) uses the same electronics? That's nonsense. I leave the low-speed torque comments alone, although I think they're nonsense, however I couldn't let this one go. If your car bucks from a throttle body swap, there is something MECHANICALLY wrong, and it's not the size of the throttle body.

***

There is a lot of good information in this thread, which certainly could provide the younger guys who have questions with both sides of the story, and allow them to make the decision for themself. I hate to see such a good thread turn into something no one cares to read simply because of the pointless posts, nitpicking at eachother, calling names, pointing fingers, playing off eachothers words and construing them into what you want them to be. There is no need to say "he started it" because you look just as bad for replying to it. Lets keep it to the facts only.

5spd GT - I truly respect your opinions. After re-reading my posts, it may seem that I'm coming off as a bit harsh towards you. If you have taken it that way, I apologize; I mean no harm in what I say/type.

 

[5spd GT]

When I responded to the dyno/track topic I was alluding to the fact of these dyno number gains from the swaps...and how they were using a 4hp gain to solidify the validness of getting a 75mm (for example) throttle body...and then all of a sudden the topic went to track times...so I tried to straighten both out...A dyno is a very wonderful tool for basis...as well as your local track...but a dyno seems to have much less "things" that can mess with a number...do to the fact it isn't that hard to press the gas pedal to the floor (WOT) in 4th gear...no shifting involved during the actual HP pull...a track time can be do to the driver...maybe he was a bit more aggresive on the launch (or vice versa)/varied the shifting rpm/speed of the shift...etc...

A dog is mans best friend as well as the dyno ...speaking of which...I need to get mine tuned...

And the bucking problem could be a TB malfunction but it would not be the first I have heard of this in similar "switching" cases...which is where I base my driveability problems on...as well as my cousin's...

The reason why I brought up the "twisted" word topic is because somepeople (I'm guilty as well) do not read all the posts and can easily be swayed by just reading one post...nmcgrawj seemed to be using this to his advantage...again alluding by questioning ideas that I never said...and I was trying to defend my previous statements...

The loss of torque in the lower rpms seems to deal with the velocity theory

 

[pleasehelp]

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[Grn92LX]

Why did I say "I'm done" to this?!Throttle bodies aren't custom parts, and shouldn't be treated as such. They're an inanimate object with a cord connect connecting to the gas pedal controlling how "big" the hole gets. It's truly that simple. There is no need to "determine the goal of the car." Throw a 75mm on it and be done with it. Yes, I said it.

Next topic: Dyno numbers.

Dyno numbers are VERY misleading in this case, and should not be used for a basis of comparison between two parts. Why? Because they do not measure how a car ACCELERATES. Nothing measures acceleration besides a timer.

In fact, I knew someone was going to come in here spouting off about magazine tested dyno numbers or possibly even testing they did themselves. I'll recite what I posted earlier:

Next topic:How in the hell are you attributing a car's "bucking" problems on a switch to a different size throttle body, which presumably (because nothing was said otherwise) uses the same electronics? That's nonsense. I leave the low-speed torque comments alone, although I think they're nonsense, however I couldn't let this one go. If your car bucks from a throttle body swap, there is something MECHANICALLY wrong, and it's not the size of the throttle body.

***

There is a lot of good information in this thread, which certainly could provide the younger guys who have questions with both sides of the story, and allow them to make the decision for themself. I hate to see such a good thread turn into something no one cares to read simply because of the pointless posts, nitpicking at eachother, calling names, pointing fingers, playing off eachothers words and construing them into what you want them to be. There is no need to say "he started it" because you look just as bad for replying to it. Lets keep it to the facts only.

5spd GT - I truly respect your opinions. After re-reading my posts, it may seem that I'm coming off as a bit harsh towards you. If you have taken it that way, I apologize; I mean no harm in what I say/type.

Joe- Good job in this thread posting a bunch of facts. If you've noticed, i've calmed down on these threads, not as hostile as I was in the past You are 100% correct in saying dyno #'s are misleading. David (5spd GT) needs to talk to Mr Michael Yount and ask him about the dyno's ability to be repeatable That guy White94Cobra told me in an older thread that going from the 70mm to 75mm gained him 4hp at the peak and lost 2tq at the peak and down low stayed the same or near the same (aka:within 2tq) So basically its safe to say the 75mm gained 15hp over stock(since he said the 70mm gained 11p over the stock) on that bolt on car and lost a torque or 2 (not that I would trust the dyno to show something so small as 1 or 2) The TRACK tells the story. Ever read Ed Curtis's signature? "Talk is cheap take it to the TRACK and prove your point"

Paul (killercanary) I'll put money on it that either longtubes or a 75mm TB get you into the 11's. Just look at your other badd ass vert partner and what he gained with the 80mm. Almost 2mph!!!!!!

 

[wytstang]

View attachment 519553

View attachment 519555

 

[NoSloCoupes]

A dog is mans best friend as well as the dyno

See, there lies( ) a problem. I've seen cars making changes and pick up NOTHING on the dyno and go to the track and pick up nearly 2 tenths!

Not to mention on different days i've lost 3-5hp in dynoing. Hell, i've seen rear tire pressure even affect the outcome. Its not that i haven't dynoed much either..i've got over 100 runs on AFM's rollers.

 

[5spd GT]

See, there lies( ) a problem. I've seen cars making changes and pick up NOTHING on the dyno and go to the track and pick up nearly 2 tenths!

Not to mention on different days i've lost 3-5hp in dynoing. Hell, i've seen rear tire pressure even affect the outcome. Its not that i haven't dynoed much either..i've got over 100 runs on AFM's rollers.

I thought in my previous post I put how the dyno isn't accurate also as well as the track...the track has a much greater chance of being inaccurate...just because of most drivers...they are both good tools...not sure where some one of you are getting your conclusions on what I typed out

 

[5spd GT]

Joe- Good job in this thread posting a bunch of facts. If you've noticed, i've calmed down on these threads, not as hostile as I was in the past You are 100% correct in saying dyno #'s are misleading. David (5spd GT) needs to talk to Mr Michael Yount and ask him about the dyno's ability to be repeatable That guy White94Cobra told me in an older thread that going from the 70mm to 75mm gained him 4hp at the peak and lost 2tq at the peak and down low stayed the same or near the same (aka:within 2tq) So basically its safe to say the 75mm gained 15hp over stock(since he said the 70mm gained 11p over the stock) on that bolt on car and lost a torque or 2 (not that I would trust the dyno to show something so small as 1 or 2) The TRACK tells the story. Ever read Ed Curtis's signature? "Talk is cheap take it to the TRACK and prove your point"

Both the dyno and track are good determiners...you can NOT depend on one...especially the track due to driver error...was the 60ft the same? shifted at the exact rpm? had a high speed camera to detail if the speed was made at the same speed? ...etc..etc..etc...

And again I thought I brought up how the dyno isn't very accurate...but less variables to factor in than the dyno...go read some of my previous post on here

 

[Joes95GT]

Both the dyno and track are good determiners...you can NOT depend on one...especially the track due to driver error...was the 60ft the same? shifted at the exact rpm? had a high speed camera to detail if the speed was made at the same speed? ...etc..etc..etc...

And again I thought I brought up how the dyno isn't very accurate...but less variables to factor in than the dyno...go read some of my previous post on here

Give me a break. Cut out the 60' time nonsense. 1/4 MPH - 1/8 MPH = total gained MPH over a certain distance. Compare those numbers at the same track on the same day with different parts. You could even do the above calculation using 1/4 time - 1/8 time.

Ok, enough with the BS.

Riddle me this: Since it is a FACT that velocity is "created" in the runners of a long-runner manifold, what is the purpose of the throttle body?

I still haven't gotten an answer, and at this point, it seems that the facts are being evaded to spin off of eachothers senseless bickering.



Joe

 

[5spd GT]

Give me a break. Cut out the 60' time nonsense. 1/4 MPH - 1/8 MPH = total gained MPH over a certain distance. Compare those numbers at the same track on the same day with different parts. You could even do the above calculation using 1/4 time - 1/8 time.

Ok, enough with the BS.

Riddle me this: Since it is a FACT that velocity is "created" in the runners of a long-runner manifold, what is the purpose of the throttle body?

I still haven't gotten an answer, and at this point, it seems that the facts are being evaded to spin off of eachothers senseless bickering.



Joe

I "brought up" the 60ft factor as another example of how track times/mph can vary...and going off the MPH gained is a good determiner if all the other factors are the same...if you have severe traction issues it can some times be hard to determine when to shift which can result in a bog to the next gear...

"What is the purpose of a TB?"

Okay...that is a pretty simple answer...attached on the throttle body is the TPS (throttle position sensor)...it basically alerts the ECU when the car is idling/under WOT/part throttle and therefore goes back to the computer and tells the computer the parameters of what fuel to run with the air being received and how to spark the whole system...to make for an efficient run...that is why it is somewhat important to clean the TB everynow and then to keep the 'puter to get a "clean" reading...

So the day these "gains" were made...was the air temp/humidity the same? shifted at same rpm? shifted at the same speed? That would be practically impossible to a human to do that...running back to back or on another day...that is why some people keep getting quicker when they go back to the track (they change those variables) whether knowing or not knowing...and it equates to a better time or mph or both...

 

[NoSloCoupes]

I thought in my previous post I put how the dyno isn't accurate

And then you said it was your best friend?? Would this be the same friend you'd like to have alone with your ol lady... one that lies to you? Ya know....humping the **** outta her. Watched Bad Boys II again last night,lol.

I'm just busting balls anyways 5spd.

 

[osceolamustang]

you guys are a riot. i will give you all a couple of tips.
1st you never know what will work. try them all if nothing else you will most certainly find out what it doesn't want.
2nd dynos are a useful tool. but the guys with the fastest cars tune at the track.

 

[5spd GT]

you guys are a riot. i will give you all a couple of tips.
1st you never know what will work. try them all if nothing else you will most certainly find out what it doesn't want.
2nd dynos are a useful tool. but the guys with the fastest cars tune at the track.

Good points...remember that the "fastest" cars usually overpower a dyno's capabilities and also the "fastest" cars are usually running an automatic based tranny (more consistent)...if your talking about NHRA and all that...

 

[EDC]

Ever read Ed Curtis's signature? "Talk is cheap take it to the TRACK and prove your point"

It's on my T-shirts too!

Paul (killercanary) I'll put money on it that either longtubes or a 75mm TB get you into the 11's. Just look at your other badd ass vert partner and what he gained with the 80mm. Almost 2mph!!!!!!

Fox throttle body conversion and the Holley 75 mm TB. Port the upper to match. Maybe a bit of tuning...

I'm also thinking Paul needs to move up from the street biased camshaft and get something a bit less streetable. After all, that Crower 15514 ain't no "baby" street cam like Paul has been running!

15514: 298*/304*-234*/240*/110*-.534"-.545"

Time to step up Mr. Riva!

Ed

 

[Grn92LX]

BOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!

Ed, I was the one that Emailed you this morning about a new cam. I might order a new one or trade mine in like we spoke about.

Mike

 

[WHITE94COBRA]

Next topic:How in the hell are you attributing a car's "bucking" problems on a switch to a different size throttle body, which presumably (because nothing was said otherwise) uses the same electronics? That's nonsense. I leave the low-speed torque comments alone, although I think they're nonsense, however I couldn't let this one go. If your car bucks from a throttle body swap, there is something MECHANICALLY wrong, and it's not the size of the throttle body.

*** How you ask? Well this is how I did it, Swapped H/C/I put on 70 mm Tb, got it dyno'd, used the shops 75mm for ****s and giggles liked the numbers, but had to put my 70mm back on. "Got my tune for the 70mm" then decided I would buy a 75 mm (I liked the power numbers plus the expandability) put it on "WITHOUT A TUNE" And I got low RPM bucking. Thats it, I know I can get rid of that with a tune but I'm changing a cam and I'm not going to spend the money twice. (Kinda stupid dont ya think!!) So i'll deal with this for another month or so, or whenever I get off my dead ass and put it in lol.



Anyways fellas hope everyone gets the TB they want for christmas!!!

Happy holidays