Alright, lets talk about subframe connectors

[96BlueStangGT]

Yeah but was that from welding on SFC's or having the torque boxes welded? I honestly can't see how you could light the interior on fire through heat transfer if all you're doing is welding on SFC's...especially if you are doing it CORRECTLY! I checked my interior often, and it wasn't even warm. Like I said tho, torque boxes is another story, they sit right under the rear seat section of the floor pan, and when you're them up you weld the torque box to the floor pan (very very thin metal, very very hot welder hah).

SFC's, but you're right. If it is done correctly, you'll be fine.

http://www.mach1registry.org/forums/showthread.php?t=63008

 

[propellerhead]

LMM ones have these torque box support plates. The plate you see actually wraps up towards the Lower Control Arm. It increases the contact area on the rear subframe. MM ones have a such a small contact area.

Here's what the seat brackets look like. With MM, you get a strip of metal and 8 triangle pieces. You have to weld them together to make a bracket. I can just imagine how fragile that would be compared to a bracket made from a single piece.

The guy who installed these for me said the MM ones were heavier too. Is heavier stronger? I don't know. We debated about it for a while. In the end, the box construction of any full length subframe connectors are more than sufficient to reduce flexing. If I had to do it all over again, I'd still get the LMM ones. They have a better design than the MM ones without adding extra weight.

 

[twogts4us]

LMM ones have these torque box support plates. The plate you see actually wraps up towards the Lower Control Arm. It increases the contact area on the rear subframe. MM ones have a such a small contact area.

If if you actually compare the contact areas / weld areas, the MM excels hands down...see the attached photos - see the brackets that wrap around the subframe? - this gives considerbly more weld area than those from Laurel Mountain. (Pardon the touch of surface rust...I opted for the bare steel subs and the paint isn't holding too well after 2 years)

Here's what the seat brackets look like. With MM, you get a strip of metal and 8 triangle pieces. You have to weld them together to make a bracket. I can just imagine how fragile that would be compared to a bracket made from a single piece.

Other than the difference you pointed out (assembly required for MM vs. plug and play for the LMM), I don't see a difference and really dont understand how you feel this would be 'fragile' - proper welding does not weaken the structure. In fact, the individual gussets allow the installer to fine tune the the install, ensuring gaps are tight and angles are proper.
I'd consider the LMM subs more fragile based on the size of the tubing. Take a look at the height of those LMM's vs. MM's. Twist each one - Which one do you think would flex easier? (Also note the MM's have reinforcing plates at each bend
to further prevent flexing -not sure if LMM has these)

The guy who installed these for me said the MM ones were heavier too. Is heavier stronger? I don't know. We debated about it for a while. In the end, the box construction of any full length subframe connectors are more than sufficient to reduce flexing. If I had to do it all over again, I'd still get the LMM ones. They have a better design than the MM ones without adding extra weight.

When you say "better design", what do you mean by that? The weight difference, the seat brackets, the weld areas?

 

[tomustang]

Laurel Mountain Mustang. They have better construction than MM. The seat bracket supports are made from a single piece of metal. MM comes in 8 little pieces you have to weld. LMM also has a larger contact area in the rear. It better supports the torque box.

Hey prop, I'll have to stop you there, there are not better construction, they are prefitted for the mustang and in which is not good. The mustang frame is all over the place and that is the reason why MM sells their kit to be perfectly welded together by whoever does weld it

The MM SFC's are also longer (top to bottom) for more strength over the LMM ones

 

[propellerhead]

see the attached photos

They didn't come thru for me. I don't see the pics.

I don't see a difference and really dont understand how you feel this would be 'fragile' - proper welding does not weaken the structure.

Now you're adding conditions. If you're gonna add "proper welding" as a condition in the equation, then whoever installs the LMM seat brackets can add optional weld points to make it even stronger and beefier. We can add conditions to the comparison all day but that wouldn't get us anywhere. My point is... between a single piece and multi-piece item, I prefer the single piece. You get better support without the added installation requirements. I didn't say the multi-piece construction will weaken the structure.

When you say "better design", what do you mean by that? The weight difference, the seat brackets, the weld areas?

I'm not a structural engineer but I like the LMM design better. I like the fact that they are lighter. I am not convinced I need heavy gauge steel beams to connect the two subframes. One guy locally showed me his custom made SFCs and they were twice as large as the MM ones and probably weighed 100 lbs. Is it overkill? I think so. We're not trying to make a single frame like the ones on trucks. We're just connecting the two frames to reduce flex. Where do we draw the line of what's overkill? Who knows.

It's been a while but I believe the LMM ones have two supported bends. The MM ones have one. Does that impact the overall effect on the car? I don't know. I know it's a cleaner fit.

prefitted for the mustang and in which is not good

Prefitted for the Mustang is NOT good? I don't think I'm understanding your logic here.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Prefitted for the Mustang is NOT good? I don't think I'm understanding your logic here.

Tom already told you that "The mustang frame is all over the place" so a one size fits all solution is not suitable

What's not to understand?

 

[san~man]

He means that the LMM ones aren't able to be fitted to the contours and differences you'll find in the area between the two subframes.

A piece that is already welded solid might not necessarily fit well versus a piece that is welded up at the time of installation like the MM one.

Also, I've never find a documented incident of an MM subframe nor seat brace area breaking due to it's visual "thinness."

 

[propellerhead]

Tom already told you that "The mustang frame is all over the place" so a one size fits all solution is not suitable

What's not to understand?

Sorry. It's not obvious to me yet. Clarify what you/he means by "all over the place".

Does that mean each Mustang frame is different? Like they are all lined up different? What is it in the design of the MM ones that makes it a better fit over the LMM set? We're talking about the subframes being different, aren't we? We have two seperate long rods that will get welded to two subframes.

He means that the LMM ones aren't able to be fitted to the contours and differences you'll find in the area between the two subframes.

A piece that is already welded solid might not necessarily fit well versus a piece that is welded up at the time of installation like the MM one.

Also, I've never find a documented incident of an MM subframe nor seat brace area breaking due to it's visual "thinness."

The seat bracket bolts to the floor. The holes are elongated to allow lateral adjustment. Then it's welded to the SFC. How many different ways will a bracket bolt to the floor that would make a single piece construction not fit? Again, I'm not a structural engineer so help me understand the advantage of the multi-piece bracket.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

By "all over the place" he means that the build quality of Mustangs is so variable that all Mustang body and frame parts are not always aligned the same way. Therefore the best SFC would be custom fit to the underside of the car and not already pre-setup for some ideal Mustang configuration that does not exist in the real world.

To summarize the build quality and specs are highly variable.

Its your money buy what you want. However, it would be wise to heed Tom's advice since he is a proven suspension expert here with a great deal of real world experience.

 

[tomustang]

Prefitted for the Mustang is NOT good? I don't think I'm understanding your logic here.

I'll put it simple, I had a hard time trying to put in my MM SFC's on my 98 cobra since ford's chassis' are not created equal I had to bend the SFC (where LMM welded their plate on) which MM recommended since it didn't fit, when your working with a full inch off what Stock says it's better to get a connector and 'adjust it' with

I don't know how much adjustability the seat bracket gets away with though

 

[twogts4us]

Now you're adding conditions. If you're gonna add "proper welding" as a condition in the equation, then whoever installs the LMM seat brackets can add optional weld points to make it even stronger and beefier. We can add conditions to the comparison all day but that wouldn't get us anywhere.

Conditions? Like proper installation? Well how else would someone put the MM seat brackets together? Glue?

My point is... between a single piece and multi-piece item, I prefer the single piece. You get better support without the added installation requirements. I didn't say the multi-piece construction will weaken the structure.

You said, "I can just imagine how fragile that would be compared to a bracket made from a single piece." Hmm, not verbatim, but to me these sound like you are saying essentially the same thing..correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm not a structural engineer but I like the LMM design better. I like the fact that they are lighter. I am not convinced I need heavy gauge steel beams to connect the two subframes. One guy locally showed me his custom made SFCs and they were twice as large as the MM ones and probably weighed 100 lbs. Is it overkill? I think so. We're not trying to make a single frame like the ones on trucks. We're just connecting the two frames to reduce flex. Where do we draw the line of what's overkill? Who knows.

Well, I, for one, (and I'm not in the minority) have faith in the MM products, particuliarly these SFCs and I believe they know what is overkill and what's not overkill more than LMM. Did you realize that MM actually was the first to call these things 'full length subframe connectors'? If you don't know the history of MM, please do yourself a favor and take a quick read of their 'about us' webpage. This company is serious about Mustang Performance. They race what they sell and sell what they race. They are automotive enthusiasts as well as engineers and designers. To me, this is like having a friend in the racing business. Face it, LMM simply buys stuff and sells stuff...they are a retailer, that's it. And there is nothing wrong with that. But to me, the choice of products is quite simple. Do you want the Walmart brand or do you want the race shop's brand. (And sometimes. for some things the Walmart brand is OK...but not for suspension.)

It's been a while but I believe the LMM ones have two supported bends. The MM ones have one. Does that impact the overall effect on the car? I don't know. I know it's a cleaner fit.

Wrong - MM's have two, supported by welded plates.
Cleaner fit? Well, maybe that's your observation because of how short the LMM subs are, in effect making them 'tighter' to the chassis? What's not 'clean' (other than the obvious..be nice, bro) about this install?

Prefitted for the Mustang is NOT good? I don't think I'm understanding your logic here.

The Mustang is just like any other Ford (or any other American made car) - the fit and finish leaves a lot to be desired. While the seat bracket may leave just 1/32" of gap on your car, don't be surprised if the next car has 1/8" gap...now can you see where you'd benefit from a custom installation?

 

[invertmast]

MM is my recommendation..

 

[propellerhead]

By "all over the place" he means that the build quality of Mustangs is so variable that all Mustang body and frame parts are not always aligned the same way. Therefore the best SFC would be custom fit to the underside of the car and not already pre-setup for some ideal Mustang configuration that does not exist in the real world.

To summarize the build quality and specs are highly variable.

Agreed. And due to these loose tolerances, you can't reliably say one brand can be made to fit better than the other. Any set of SFCs, regardless of brand will need some amount of fitting by a competent welder. That's a key point someone shopping for SFC's will have to realize.

Its your money buy what you want. However, it would be wise to heed Tom's advice since he is a proven suspension expert here with a great deal of real world experience.

Psst! I've had my LMM ones for quite a while now. I'm not the one shopping for SFCs. I am only presenting what I like about the LMM ones for the benefit of this thread.

I'll put it simple, I had a hard time trying to put in my MM SFC's on my 98 cobra since ford's chassis' are not created equal I had to bend the SFC (where LMM welded their plate on) which MM recommended since it didn't fit, when your working with a full inch off what Stock says it's better to get a connector and 'adjust it' with

I don't know how much adjustability the seat bracket gets away with though

That sucks. Mine lined up right away if I remember right. Maybe it was because my car hasn't been twisted hard yet. Maybe it was because the LMM ones has two bends. It seemed to follow the contour of the floor closer.

La la la...

It's nice to see people who are passionate about products made by their friends in the industry. MM is lucky to have friends like you.


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Again, I was simply pointing out the features I like about the LMM SFC for the benefit of the thread. Specifically, for anyone shopping for SFCs and might come across this thread. I don't just post a brand name and follow it with smilies. I like to point out specific features. I like the single piece seat brackets and the torque box support plates of the LMM SFCs.

 

[hotmustang331]

AWSOME! This is what I like to see . Plenty of information, and plenty of different people voicing their opinions. You guys almost turned this intio a tech thread haha.

I pretty much have my mind made up now, but dont let that stop you from posting! Thanks again guys .

 

[Ordie]

so now I'm in debate about MM or LMM....

 

[Red35th]

Doesn't MM recommend against the seat brackets?

Not sure if I read that on MM or over at cornercarvers.

(don't remember the exact reasoning either, but the argument was made that it can be dangerous)

 

[invertmast]

Doesn't MM recommend against the seat brackets?

Not sure if I read that on MM or over at cornercarvers.

(don't remember the exact reasoning either, but the argument was made that it can be dangerous)

well think of it this way... if they (MM) recommended against it, why would they waste the time and $$$ to have them made and included with the SFC's..

 

[Stangsgrl]

Recommend the weld also...

Went back the other week for ss tips, almost all the bolts in my subframe connectors were out.....but it's welded in there




MM and Kenny Brown are good sc's...