Starting probs after cam install???

[66 Tiger]

After doing a "search" I've pretty much concluded from other threads that I'm experiencing some sort of a timing issue with my motor after doing the cam swap.

When I turn the motor over all I get is a popping coming from the carb. I've tried advancing & retarding the distributor ( as far as the vacuum advance will let me anyway) & still no results - no indications what so ever of it wanting to start...

I've double checked that the #1 piston is on the compression stroke several times by turning the motor over until I feel pressure in the spark plug hole & then re-installing the distributor with the rotor aimed at that piston. Is it possible that I could STILL be out a 180*?

Also - I installed new plug wires & was wondering if I possibly messed up their order going back on the cap? The firing order that I'm using is 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8. The reason I'm second guessing their order is there is no point of reference on the distributor cap indicating where the #1 wire goes. Should there even be one?

Can anyone help me identify where or how I could determine that? BTW - Its a MSD Pro-Billet dist if that makes any difference.

Thanks in advance...

 

[fasttback]

Non-roller 302 (HO) or 289 right?

If so the firing order is correct. Remember the distributor spins counter clockwise.

To check TDC watch the intake valve open and close on the number 1 cylinder, then the damper should be very close to "0". If not, move it forward or backward to zero, but don't rotate 180 degrees.

Sounds like spark is occurring but not at the right time.

 

[69Cat]

First I would disconnect the vacuum advance if it isn't already. Don't need it for breaking in the cam.

With the crank about 15 degrees before TDC on #1 compression stroke - and you are sure it is on compression - pull #1 plug wire, put a plug in it and lay it on a grounded surface so it will spark (ie engine block). Now turn on the ignition and turn your distributor back and forth till you get a spark. You may have to move the distributor quickly in a small arc to get it to induce a spark, but when you get a spark you will be pretty close to where you need to be. Lock down the distributor and reconnect #1 wire. It should start so you can make final adjustments but I'll bet that if done right you will be within 5 degrees.

If you don't get a spark with the crank positioned around 10-20 degrees before TDC on #1 then you need to start looking at other areas.

 

[66 Tiger]

Ok - Disregard the question about the plug wire location on the dist cap... I found some old pic's & was able to determin their correct placement. ( I'm still confused though as to why there are no markings on the cap )

fasttback
Non-roller 302 (HO) or 289 right?

If so the firing order is correct. Remember the distributor spins counter clockwise.

The motor is a 69' 302. The cam spec card didn't come with any information regarding firing order - that's why I assumed it wouldn't change.

Being that I went from a hydraulic cam to a solid, is there any chance the firing order could/would be different?

 

[zookeeper]

Starting a new motor for the first time is a real nail-biter, but cars only need a few parameters to run. First, you did make very, very sure the cam is correctly timed, right? If so, the next thing I would check is the timing/firing order. I always stick my thumb in the number one plug hole while someone bumps the key, then when the piston forces air past my thumb, I check to make sure the timing mark on the balancer is at or near number one. Then if needed, make the rotor in the distributer point at the number one terminal on the cap. Gently lock the distributer down and consider the timing to now be close enough to start. Next, double and triple-check the firing order, one wire at a time. Remember that 351W cams will also work in 289/302 motors, the only difference is the firing order. Check with the cam manufacturer or vendor you bought it from just to make sure. If the timing and firing order are set, the only thing left is gas. I ALWAYS fill the carb before even trying to fire a new motor. You can do this by squirting a small amount (carb bowls don't hold much) into the carb vent tubes. Now you don't have to crank the motor to death waiting for a manual fuel pump to fill the carb. I then work the carb linkage by hand a few times while looking down the venturis to ensure that the accel pump is squirting gas into the motor. If you checked all this, and make sure that the plugs have spark, the motor WILL fire up. It has to since you covered everything needed to make it run. That's what I looooove about old-tech motors, they are so stone-simple to work on. New cars are nothing like that at all, did you know that lots of newer cars (some Dodges, for example) will throw a "check engine" light if the gas cap is either too loose or too tight? That's if they will start at all? I'm sure you're going to find your problem soon, just cover all your bases and I'll bet you find it.

 

[zookeeper]

I just re-read your post. It makes no difference whatsoever which terminal you choose as #1. As long as when the motor is at TDC, the rotor is pointing at that terminal, and then you just go with your firing order from there. I don't mean to sound condescending, but are you sure you're using the #1 cylinder as a reference?The right side is 1-2-3-4 and the left side is 5-6-7-8. It's easy to get lost sometimes, especially if you're used to working on another brand of motor which numbers their cylinders differently.

 

[66 Tiger]

I just re-read your post. It makes no difference whatsoever which terminal you choose as #1. As long as when the motor is at TDC, the rotor is pointing at that terminal, and then you just go with your firing order from there. I don't mean to sound condescending, but are you sure you're using the #1 cylinder as a reference?The right side is 1-2-3-4 and the left side is 5-6-7-8. It's easy to get lost sometimes, especially if you're used to working on another brand of motor which numbers their cylinders differently.

LOL - Your not sounding condecending at all! I truly value everyones input & welcome any advice. ( it all helps to reinforce that I'm doing things acurately )

I am getting a bit lost here though - You mentioned that when the #1 piston is @ TDC, you line the rotor up with the terminal on the cap.

What I have been doing is bringing the #1 piston to TDC & then lining the rotor up with the #1 piston, ( passenger side front )not the rotor?

When standing at the front bumper looking down at the disributor my number one terminal on the cap is at the 1:00 position & I have triple checked that the firing order is correct from that point. ( I'm unable to confirm with Crower untill Mon the firing order for their cam - the cam card dosen't say anything either other than for: Engine Application: 221 - 302 Ford )

I'll give lining the rotor up with the distibutor terminal a shot & get back with the results.

 

[69Cat]

66Tiger, it sounds like you are still guessing whether you have spark occuring at the correct time. Lining up the rotor by eye isn't as good as actually seeing the spark jump a plug, when you see that spark you know.

Line the cap and rotor up by eye, mark the distributor position if you wish, and do as I suggested. Sometimes you only here a little ping (arc) inside the cap without seeing the spark jump the plug but that is good enough.

Zookeeper has it right, you need fuel and spark to run. Prove the spark now. You can dump fuel in the carb by hand to get it to run a few seconds so that is easy to prove. If still no sucess after proving those two you have to start looking at a mechanical problem like wrong cam timing or valves not closing all the way.

Ken

 

[66 Tiger]

Yeeowww!!!

After lining the rotor up with the #1 plug-wire terminal on the distributor cap instead of the #1 cylinder ( like I originally did ) the motor fired right up! I let it run for three seperate 10min cycles at 2500rpm to break in the cam & everything seemed to work perfect.

Thanks for the advice on this one - I was starting to get a little concerned...

The only bad thing about Stang Net is that you can't go get your buddies a beer after they help bail you out.

Now all I need to do is get the timing squared away & dial in the carb.

:SNSign: :SNSign: :SNSign: :SNSign:

 

[zookeeper]

I'm glad to hear you got your problem solved. As you found out, these motors are very, very simple to troubleshoot as long as you have a basic understanding of how the fuel delivery and ignition systems work. You made a fundamental mistake when you set the intial timing and once you corrected it, the engine fired right up. I promise you will never make that mistake again, and that's the fun thing about older cars. They are very good for us learn-as-we-go types. Congratulations!