New motor combination suggestions??

[ratio411]

I agree with the EFI comments, I am good with carbs, but I recognize the benefits of EFI, so I am trying to learn.

As for the cost of a 351 NA build vs 302 SC, I am pretty sure a cost comparison would show the 351 NA cheaper than the 302 SC.
Especially if you used parts that were of equal longevity.
I mean anyone can throw an SC on a junkyard 302 and make 400 HP, but would they make that 400 HP for 5 minutes, 5 days, 5 years???
If you build that 302 SC to last as long as the 351 NA, the SC will probably cost more.

 

[srtthis]

if your goal is 400NA hp why even bother with a stroked 351? you can do that with a 302 based motor... hell you could do it with a 306 if you are willing to push the limit on pump gas

 

[2000xp8]

Not sure why guys think 400rwhp is hard with a 302, i'd almost go as far as calling it easy.

347, cnc wedges, or afr 185's or better, edelbrock vic jr intake, custom cam should put you well over the top.

Had you had said 500rwhp, i'd say that's stretch.

As for going carb, that is a terrible idea to say the least.

 

[jdstang87]

Well like I said, I'm open minded...first car project here. This post started last year and that was when I said 400 rwhp but I guess I forgot to mention that I'm more interested in going big or going home now...so 500 rwhp is more accurate. I don't really want to stay with my stock 302 block because it's at almost 200,000 miles and I don't know what it's been thru in the past with previous owners...the last thing I would want to do is stretch it out to a 347 and risk it!
I want a budget, quality build...not concerned about fuel efficiency, I don't own anything like that ha

 

[2000xp8]

Well like I said, I'm open minded...first car project here. This post started last year and that was when I said 400 rwhp but I guess I forgot to mention that I'm more interested in going big or going home now...so 500 rwhp is more accurate. I don't really want to stay with my stock 302 block because it's at almost 200,000 miles and I don't know what it's been thru in the past with previous owners...the last thing I would want to do is stretch it out to a 347 and risk it!
I want a budget, quality build...not concerned about fuel efficiency, I don't own anything like that ha

You might want to eliminate the word "budget" from your last statement.

Understand that at certain levels, cost escalates in one of these projects. 500 reliable wheel hp or more add's quite a bit of money to any project.

Going past a 3o2's blocks limit could mean you have to add 10 grand to the budget.
Whether you spend the money on a race block or goto a 351, neither of those solutions are cheap (contrary to what some think).

IMO, set your goal to 450rwhp or less. This way you don't need custom or extremely expensive parts. Going too much past 450rwhp on a 302 may limit the car's reliability, and it's of my opinion that you can barely tell the difference between 450rwhp and 500rwhp.
You don't just want to be the next guy here with big dreams that has a car that never runs.

Unless your pockets are deep, forget a race block or 351 based engine.

Your best bet is probably to build a budget 302 or 306, get some good heads like twisted wedges or afr165's, add a good cam, intake and S trim.
Another purpose this serves is that you can get the car together quickly, drive it have some fun, then add the supercharger later, instead of sitting on 10 grand in parts hoping you can get it together one day.

As far as you block being worn, probably not any more than anyone else's.

 

[jdstang87]

You don't just want to be the next guy here with big dreams that has a car that never runs.

I definitely don't want to end up as one of those guys...Sometimes I consider going with a newer mustang that has that kind of power stock, but I just like the Foxes.
Money isn't really an issue, but I don't want to spend all of it on my mustang either! I have a cummins project too...
With that said the budget build from my base 302 is sounding better for the goals I have in mind. I'm just not familiar with superchargers so I guess I'm a little weary about uncharted territory. How much boost is the S-trim capable of?

 

[2000xp8]

Boost is relative to the rest of the combo, with good engine parts the boost is lower.
IMO, the less boost you need, the safer the combo is.

While i can't give you a boost number, i can tell you an S trim, with the heads i mentioned above is capable of splitting a block and then some. So if you keep it pullied so the car makes around 450rwhp, you will be fine.

I think the newest S is really the Si, hard to keep up with so many model numbers.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

Curious JD...do you have a particular goal in mind, or speed you want to achieve, or do you just like the sound of yourself saying "my car makes 500hp"? Not trying to be insulting, but do you know how much 500rwhp is? That'll get you well into the 10's and probably cost you $20k to build and harness approriatley....especially if you want to maintain good street manners and keep it together long term.

It's not just the engine you have to address with that kind of power. It's the fuel system, the ignition system, the drivetrain, the suspension, etc, etc.

Don't get me wrong....500rwhp just rolls of the tongue, but there are very few cars out there making this kind of power for a reason. Making 400rwhp is a far more realistic goal and can be done much more cost effectivley. And it's still a damn fast car. Guys have broken into the 10's on 400rwhp....so don't fret.

 

[ratio411]

Whether you spend the money on a race block or goto a 351, neither of those solutions are cheap (contrary to what some think).

351 based engine is not going to be a huge expense over a 347, and it will make tons more power, as well as far exceed in longevity.
Yeah, it'll be a bit more, but you get what you pay for.

 

[ratio411]

Not trying to be insulting, but do you know how much 500rwhp is?

Banger has a point...
500 RWHP amounts to roughly 600 FWHP, assuming about 15% parasitic loss.

When you think in terms of HP, most people are talking flywheel power, which is an easier number to make sound impressive.
You started the conversation specifically talking about "rear wheel" power, and we went along, but 500 RWHP is getting unrealistic for the lower RPM street friendly NA engine you envision.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

351 based engine is not going to be a huge expense over a 347, and it will make tons more power, as well as far exceed in longevity.
Yeah, it'll be a bit more, but you get what you pay for.

While I agree with you that building the engine alone wouldn’t be that much greater expense (another $500 give or take), you've also got to consider the cost of the conversion parts. Headers, mounts, brackets, intake manifold, flywheel, possibly hood depending on manifold height, etc...

Just the swap parts alone could put you just south of a grand deepening on the quality of your components and you haven't even started building the engine yet.

If one insists on making big horsepower N/A, I agree....there's no replacement for displacement. But if he's not planning to make enough power to approach the failure limits of the 302W block, I seen no real reason to consider the 351W over a stroked and poked 302W really? I mean...there is more torque to be had, for certain...but if he's building this to run as a street car, do we really thing he's going to notice another 30-50lbs/ft more torque in a 3,000lb car with an engine that's probably going to be producing upwards of 400lbs/ft anyway?

I guess I'm spoiled (or even tainted if you will). After previously owning a supercharged V8. I can't for the life of me fathom why anyone would want to build a big displacement, N/A 351W based engine for power levels less than 500hp when it can be done so much easier and more cost effective, all while maintaining perfect drivability, street manners and most importantly emissions and fuel economy with just a little bit of boost.

 

[jdstang87]

I never claimed to be that intelligent about all this so you can't insult me...I've only rebuilt old tractors. I do have an idea what 500 hp is because my cummins runs right at that...of course it weighs at least twice as much. I GUESS 400 rwhp (500 fwhp) would be sufficient for what I want...but I just don't want to end up spending money on a good build and then decide that "it's just not enough"! I'm not concerned about top speed, just off the line power for the most part and general street driving.

 

[ratio411]

While I agree with you that building the engine alone wouldn’t be that much greater expense (another $500 give or take), you've also got to consider the cost of the conversion parts. Headers, mounts, brackets, intake manifold, flywheel, possibly hood depending on manifold height, etc...

It's really easier than you, or most people think.
I can understand that you think that there is so much to swap, but there really isn't.

289-302-351w-351c all use many more 'swap' parts than most people realize.

They all use same:
Bellhousing
Engine mounts
Flywheel/Flexplate (28 or 50 oz being the variable)
Clutch/crank bushing and related parts
Pulleys swap between them and all the accessories, and all accessories are common.
Brackets for said accessories are hit or miss, generally brackets don't swap, but there are portions of brackets or entire assemblies that can be used either as is, or with mods.

The biggest swap parts in terms of money are:
Headers
Intake
But you would buy these parts for any engine you build.

The other parts needed for sure would be:
Oil pan
Distributor

This group of engines are designed to be truely easy swaps.
Probably to save Ford money on the assembly line, so they could throw just about anything in a car as it came down the line, and not need too many different parts floating around where the engine line and body line met. Just a guess...

 

[ratio411]

I'm not concerned about top speed, just off the line power for the most part...

You can build an engine that has tons of 'off idle' power, but you also have to worry about how you get that power to the ground.
The level of power you are talking about is going to be hard to 'hook' in a stock chassis.
That is another expense you need to think about.

Built properly, as an entire engine/chassis system, the car you are imagining could pull the wheels off idle, but if you just build the engine and don't spend equally in the driveline/chassis, you are going to make a bunch of noise along with tons of tire smoke.

But hey, you'll still be telling the truth when you say it has "500 HP"!

 

[ratio411]

Banger:

When it comes to the 302/347 vs 351/408 arguement, that has been going on for decades.
I am not trying to be combative, just express my opinion and clear the air of the cloudy details.

I have never run a supercharger on a street car, although I have been driving 7.3 Powerstroke turbo diesels since they came out 94/95.
Everytime I drive one, I daydream about how awesome it would be to have that turbo in a gasoline engined car!
It's sweet music!

I had a Subaru (I think), one of those little cars with a huge rear spoiler and a scoop that is wide and super tall sticking off the back of the hood...

Anyway we were at a red light on a 4 lane, and about 1/8 mile after the light, it merged into a 2 lane.
The kind of light where all the normal people wait their turn and line up in the lane that is staying, and only the @-holes that want to force their way over in front of everyone get in the lane that goes away... You know the deal.

I waited my turn, just before the light changed, a blue Subaru pulled next to me in the 'dead lane'.
I said no way... and floored it when the light changed. So did he...
That turbo held it's own, and this 5000 lb van held off the rice.
Suddenly, when he knew he was toast, there was a burst of revs, a big cloud of smoke, and the flast of an NOS sticker as he skirted past me.
I couldn't believe he had to hit the bottle just to pass lil ol me in the big heavy diesel! LMAO.

Anyway, back to the thread. Not meaning to hijack, just ensure all of you pro-power adder guys that I know the deal, and just play devil's advocate.

 

[2000xp8]

I have never run a supercharger on a street car, although I have been driving 7.3 Powerstroke turbo diesels since they came out 94/95.
Everytime I drive one, I daydream about how awesome it would be to have that turbo in a gasoline engined car!
It's sweet music!

Once you go supercharged, it's hard to envision it any other way. I frequently consider getting another vehicle, first thing i do, is look to see if there are superchargers available and for how much.
Down side is that superchargers are terrible for your driving habits, you fall right back into driving like you were in highschool with nothing to lose.

As for the 351 vs 302 debate, that's one that will go on forever, but the conversion parts and higher end parts to feed a good 351 based engine add up to quite a bit of money. What's the point in doing a 351 and using parts that aren't even good enough to feed a 347.
A proper 408 with the right heads/cam/intake with conversion parts will add more to the price than would a 302 boss or dart.

I can appreciate the 351 swap, but most here seem to make less hp than guys i know with NA 347's, some even less than 302's.
A 351 with less than 450rwhp is just a waste of money and added weight.

 

[jdstang87]

So the way it sounds is that my best choice for my goals/plans would be to stick with my 302 stock block (assuming it checks out ok as far as integrity) and maybe bore it out, get some aluminum heads, intake, cam, up one size on injectors possibly, etc? Then I would still have the choice of adding some kind of forced induction/power adder later on....trying to take everyone's influence into consideration because that's how I'm learning. Don't worry about hijacking because it gives me more to read and understand.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

Banger:

When it comes to the 302/347 vs 351/408 arguement, that has been going on for decades.
I am not trying to be combative, just express my opinion and clear the air of the cloudy details.

I have never run a supercharger on a street car, although I have been driving 7.3 Powerstroke turbo diesels since they came out 94/95.
Everytime I drive one, I daydream about how awesome it would be to have that turbo in a gasoline engined car!
It's sweet music!

I had a Subaru (I think), one of those little cars with a huge rear spoiler and a scoop that is wide and super tall sticking off the back of the hood...

Anyway we were at a red light on a 4 lane, and about 1/8 mile after the light, it merged into a 2 lane.
The kind of light where all the normal people wait their turn and line up in the lane that is staying, and only the @-holes that want to force their way over in front of everyone get in the lane that goes away... You know the deal.

I waited my turn, just before the light changed, a blue Subaru pulled next to me in the 'dead lane'.
I said no way... and floored it when the light changed. So did he...
That turbo held it's own, and this 5000 lb van held off the rice.
Suddenly, when he knew he was toast, there was a burst of revs, a big cloud of smoke, and the flast of an NOS sticker as he skirted past me.
I couldn't believe he had to hit the bottle just to pass lil ol me in the big heavy diesel! LMAO.

Anyway, back to the thread. Not meaning to hijack, just ensure all of you pro-power adder guys that I know the deal, and just play devil's advocate.

Turbo's do rock...for certain. I just threw the supercharger option out there because of its simplicity, consistency and cost effectiveness. I don't think I've ever seen a turbo car run consistent at the track and their performance seems to vary on a day, by day basis.

I think a turbo kit being sold in the same price range as say an entry level Vortech is going to come with some compromise. Quality, consistency, peaky power bands. The kits that really seem to have the details worked out (HP, Hellion, etc) are quite pricey by comparison.

But yes, a turbo is certainly a viable option to meet or exceed his horsepower goals.

One other thing to consider....that little Subaru you ran with your van was only 2.5L in comparison to your 7.3L. It's true it probably weighed half as much, but that's a pretty significant displacement disadvantage. A 5.0L with a supercharger/turbo would be a completely different animal. Just gotta consider an apples to apples comparison.

So the way it sounds is that my best choice for my goals/plans would be to stick with my 302 stock block (assuming it checks out ok as far as integrity) and maybe bore it out, get some aluminum heads, intake, cam, up one size on injectors possibly, etc? Then I would still have the choice of adding some kind of forced induction/power adder later on....trying to take everyone's influence into consideration because that's how I'm learning. Don't worry about hijacking because it gives me more to read and understand.

You could go with the aluminum heads, high dollar intake, etc....but you probably wont' need to. Seriously....a $500 Explorer top end, off the shelf cam grind and 8-10psi will get you well into and possibly above the 400rwhp range. Add a little stroke to the engine and you could make more torque and horsepower still, with less effort.

It’s not that all those things aren’t nice…..but you could do it with a lot less an have plenty left over to address the other areas of the car we suggested.

 

[2000xp8]

So the way it sounds is that my best choice for my goals/plans would be to stick with my 302 stock block (assuming it checks out ok as far as integrity) and maybe bore it out, get some aluminum heads, intake, cam, up one size on injectors possibly, etc? Then I would still have the choice of adding some kind of forced induction/power adder later on....trying to take everyone's influence into consideration because that's how I'm learning. Don't worry about hijacking because it gives me more to read and understand.

Exactly.
If you plan to use an SC in the future, i wouldn't worry about anything other than freshening up the current shortblock.
The block splits before the internals break, so spend little on the internals.

Now if you don't plan to add an SC, then get yourself a good eagle 347 kit and have a reputable shop build it.
Again though, don't go nuts on the parts, guys here will swear by forged this and that, news flash, doesn't matter, the block still breaks before the internals.

The one place i'll disagree with gear banger is the use of restrictive iron heads.
Aluminum has less chance of detonation, run cooler and are lighter. Not to mention they are better flowing heads so you will need less boost to meet your goal.
Less boost=more reliable.

Me personally when it comes to pushrod engines, i believe in sinking the most in the heads.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

Exactly.
If you plan to use an SC in the future, i wouldn't worry about anything other than freshening up the current shortblock.
The block splits before the internals break, so spend little on the internals.

Now if you don't plan to add an SC, then get yourself a good eagle 347 kit and have a reputable shop build it.
Again though, don't go nuts on the parts, guys here will swear by forged this and that, news flash, doesn't matter, the block still breaks before the internals.

Bingo. Although I may stroke mine anyway. For what the stroker kits have come down to now (under $1,000 in many cases), I find it tough to justify just giving my engine new rings and bearings....especially if I'm going to have it apart anyway. Might as well pick up the torque on the bottom end some and give her some bigger lungs while I'm at it. Won't have to push the blower so hard either. I bet a 331/347 with a GT40 top end and 6-8psi would motor along pretty friggin well.