Electrical Multiple spark with spout in, normal when out

[Cumstang59]

Hi Everyone. I have a weird issue that I haven't seen anyone else have. I mostly work on my diesels and have this 1995 Mustang Cobra that has been a great car.

Recently, it started blowing TFI modules. The parts were cheap enough and it doesn't do anything when I jump the pins to scan, so I replaced the dizzy and the coil while I was replacing the TFI. I also made my own plug wires and put in new plugs. It does this with new and old parts, so I think we can safely rule out what I replaced. I took it to a mechanic I'm friends with and he said to try the computer. It does the exact same thing.

It runs and drives fine with the spout out. I put a few thousand miles on it (spout out) to make sure it didn’t blow the TFI module and it didn’t. Can anyone point me in the right direction for things to test? I just bought an Oscilloscope and am learning how to use it. A link to the video is below. Any help is appreciated. Thanks!


View: https://youtu.be/oaKEuX2TbVw

 

[General karthief]

Have you checked for codes?

 

[Noobz347]

Why are you running the MSD?

Can you remove it from the system and let us know how the car runs?

I've never seen an instance where an MSD improved anything on an otherwise, street car. The stock ignition system on Fox/SN Windsors is pretty stout.

 

[Cumstang59]

Have you checked for codes?

It does nothing when I jump the wires to check. My mechanic friend says he has a scanner that will work somewhere. I haven't got back with him due to the holidays.

Why are you running the MSD?

Can you remove it from the system and let us know how the car runs?

I've never seen an instance where an MSD improved anything on an otherwise, street car. The stock ignition system on Fox/SN Windsors is pretty stout.

Sorry, the MSD thing was a joke because somehow the car made its own MSD. I tried them in the past, but always had problems, so I stay away from MSD. The car is completely stock save for CAI and exhaust.

 

[Noobz347]

Let's go back to your original post:

Recently, it started blowing TFI modules. The parts were cheap enough and it doesn't do anything when I jump the pins to scan

What does this mean, exactly?

so I replaced the dizzy and the coil while I was replacing the TFI.

With what parts?

Things that come to mind here:

It is [hard] these days, to find a quality TFI. Not just a little hard, like you got 25% chance of getting a good one, hard.

Non-OEM distributors for these cars are mostly garbage.

IF [both] of your distributors are used OEM, have you tried replacing the PiP in either of these?

How do the drive gears look?

I took it to a mechanic I'm friends with and he said to try the computer. It does the exact same thing.

What does this mean?

I just bought an Oscilloscope and am learning how to use it.

I honestly do not know how this will help you. I am familiar with the use of an oscilloscope but the thing is that it can only confirm what you know is a bad part (i.e. the TFI module).

This has come up a few times lately and I still don't see the relevance. There is a TFI tester on ebay that's like $8. I think Amazon has them too.

 

[Cumstang59]

Let's go back to your original post:




What does this mean, exactly?

I replaced three TFI modules. On the last one, I replaced everything because I was sick of it. Then I found this multiple spark issue.

With what parts?

I get everything from O'Reilly. The dizzy had a lifetime warranty and the TFI was a master craft I think. I want to say the coil was standard ignition. I'm not sure how helpful that info is since the car runs fine with the spout out. I just don't have the same performance and fuel economy.

Things that come to mind here:

It is [hard] these days, to find a quality TFI. Not just a little hard, like you got 25% chance of getting a good one, hard.

That's what I thought and planned on carrying a spare till I found this multiple spark issue.

Non-OEM distributors for these cars are mostly garbage.

It sucks how hard it is to find good parts. I normally don't replace anything unless I'm sure.

IF [both] of your distributors are used OEM, have you tried replacing the PiP in either of these?

I didn't because it runs fine with the spout out meaning the pip signal is good. Does that make sense, or am I missing something?

How do the drive gears look?

They look normal. I didn't notice anything different when I compared them.

What does this mean?

He looked at it, even called his dad who knows more and they both felt it was a computer issue based on the fact it runs fine with the spout out, which takes the computer out of the equation. I tried a used computer and the car does the exact same thing.

I honestly do not know how this will help you. I am familiar with the use of an oscilloscope but the thing is that it can only confirm what you know is a bad part (i.e. the TFI module).

This has come up a few times lately and I still don't see the relevance. There is a TFI tester on ebay that's like $8. I think Amazon has them too.

I wanted to see the pip signal generated by the dizzy and then the signal the computer generated back to the TFI. I was really hoping for a short to show up, but both graphs look the same with the spout in and out, so I'm really not sure where to go. I do need to review the recording I made at some point, but I did not see a change in the signals with the spout in and out.

 

[Noobz347]

Pull your salt and pepper connectors apart [carefully] and inspect, clean , and lube all the pins.

The multi-spark thing makes no sense to me at all. Say more about this if you can.

 

[Cumstang59]

Pull your salt and pepper connectors apart [carefully] and inspect, clean , and lube all the pins.

The multi-spark thing makes no sense to me at all. Say more about this if you can.

Where do I find that connector? It looks familiar, but I'm not near the car currently.

It makes no sense to me either because it's like the car made its own MSD system lol. Basically with the spout out, it only sparks once as you turn the dizzy. Once I plug the spout in, it sparks constantly when I turn the dizzy. That's how I found the issue initially. I wanted to verify spark so I plugged in the spark tester and turned the key on. I heard all this clicking and saw the tester lighting up like crazy. As soon as I pulled the spout, the tester stopped lighting up and the clicking sound was gone. Obviously, it only sparks at the certain spots where the hall effect sensor creates the pip signal. Not sure the best way to say that. Both distributors do this. I've swapped the coils with no change and tried a new spare TFI module as well with no change.

 

[Noobz347]

If you are able to pull codes, plug the spout back in and look for a spout, ignition, or PiP, trouble code.

Do Key On and Off tests if possible.

 

[Cumstang59]

If you are able to pull codes, plug the spout back in and look for a spout, ignition, or PiP, trouble code.

Do Key On and Off tests if possible.

I wish I was, but it does nothing when I jump the pins or connect my other scanners to the OBDII port. I'm not great with electrical, so I may end up taking it to the mechanic.

 

[Noobz347]

I wish I was, but it does nothing when I jump the pins or connect my other scanners to the OBDII port. I'm not great with electrical, so I may end up taking it to the mechanic.

Ok but think about this... Swapping the EEC for another 30+ year old EEC for "testing" is no test at all.


Doing the same test with [known good]/tested EEC-IV gives me a much warmer fuzzy.

Not to mention my expectation of the condition of whatever EEC the mechanic has just lying around.

 

[Cumstang59]

Ok but think about this... Swapping the EEC for another 30+ year old EEC for "testing" is no test at all.

Doing the same test with [known good]/tested EEC-IV gives me a much warmer fuzzy.

Not to mention my expectation of the condition of whatever EEC the mechanic has just lying around.

The junk yard said it was tested. All I know is that the odds of two computers doing the exact same thing no one has ever seen before is highly unlikely. However, maybe this is why TFI modules fail and no one has caught it before? That seems unlikely as well, but you never know.

Do you know if all the computers are the same? I could only find one for a cobra, which is the one I bought.

 

[Noobz347]

All I know is that the odds of two computers doing the exact same thing no one has ever seen before is highly unlikely.

Not anymore my friend. 36+ years old.

Do you know if all the computers are the same? I could only find one for a cobra, which is the one I bought.

They are [not] all the same. The Cobra computers were setup for 24 lb injectors (X3L, X3Z, I think).

What injectors are you running?

 

[Cumstang59]

Not anymore my friend. 36+ years old.

Guess I better make friends with another cobra owner lol.


They are [not] all the same. The Cobra computers were setup for 24 lb injectors (X3L, X3Z, I think).

What injectors are you running?

I got a reman stock set in 2017. I believe they are 24lb, but I would have to check.

 

[General karthief]

OoooooK, first lets address the computer not talking, are you using the test port under the dash driver side? That one don't work on the 94-5 stangs, the test port is behind the passenger shock tower.
I would find another spout connector to swap in,

 

[Cumstang59]

OoooooK, first lets address the computer not talking, are you using the test port under the dash driver side? That one don't work on the 94-5 stangs, the test port is behind the passenger shock tower.
I would find another spout connector to swap in,

I have used the test port in the past by the shock tower and it has worked fine. Now it does nothing. The spout is just a jumper, correct? I don't want to spend time looking for one if I can just connect a wire.

 

[General karthief]

I have used the test port in the past by the shock tower and it has worked fine. Now it does nothing. The spout is just a jumper, correct? I don't want to spend time looking for one if I can just connect a wire.

There's prolly more to the spout thing than a jumper wire, if the computer will not communicate then the ECU has an issue, needs to be sent in

Home - ECU Exchange

ECU Exchange specializes in the re-manufacturing and repair of engine control modules.

www.theecuexchange.com

 

[Cumstang59]

There's prolly more to the spout thing than a jumper wire, if the computer will not communicate then the ECU has an issue, needs to be sent in

Home - ECU Exchange

ECU Exchange specializes in the re-manufacturing and repair of engine control modules.

www.theecuexchange.com

Interesting. If it has a resistor in there like the seatbelt on my truck that would be cool because I have thousands of resistors. According to LMR, it just completes the circuit (https://lmr.com/item/LRS-14489C/1986-95-Mustang-50L-Spout-Connector). I have zero resistance on the spout, so LMR is correct.

Have you used the ECU exchange? I never had luck with reman electronics save for my Ducati. Nice to know I could just pop over too. Thanks! I used to live in Auburndale BTW.

 

[nickyb]

I get everything from O'Reilly. The dizzy had a lifetime warranty and the TFI was a master craft I think. I want to say the coil was standard ignition. I'm not sure how helpful that info is since the car runs fine with the spout out. I just don't have the same performance and fuel economy.

That's what I thought and planned on carrying a spare till I found this multiple spark issue.

It sucks how hard it is to find good parts. I normally don't replace anything unless I'm sure.

I didn't because it runs fine with the spout out meaning the pip signal is good. Does that make sense, or am I missing something?

They look normal. I didn't notice anything different when I compared them.

He looked at it, even called his dad who knows more and they both felt it was a computer issue based on the fact it runs fine with the spout out, which takes the computer out of the equation. I tried a used computer and the car does the exact same thing.

I wanted to see the pip signal generated by the dizzy and then the signal the computer generated back to the TFI. I was really hoping for a short to show up, but both graphs look the same with the spout in and out, so I'm really not sure where to go. I do need to review the recording I made at some point, but I did not see a change in the signals with the spout in and out.

O'Reilly's distributors SUCK!!!!!
I have been threw three new ones and they absolutely are funk in crap.
I used different tfi's on there dist. And still no fugging good, a good used one is best , I ordered a dragon fire distributor and it has been fine so far.

 

[Cumstang59]

O'Reilly's distributors SUCK!!!!!
I have been threw three new ones and they absolutely are funk in crap.
I used different tfi's on there dist. And still no fugging good, a good used one is best , I ordered a dragon fire distributor and it has been fine so far.

Glad I got a good one. Not being able to check codes sucks lol.

While I was out testing the spout connector, I do have continuity between a few pins on the TFI connecter. I just ordered a new one. Fingers crossed.