07 Cobra information, specs/prices/due date

GinoGT · Dec 16, 2004

87'GTstang said:
5.4 liter..............
It's about time something is done about the anemic 4.6.

Riiiiight........the 5.4 is nothing but the anemic 4.6 with a stroke so long it's just stupid.

Edbert · Dec 16, 2004

Just for the sake of clarifying here...

I think it is amazing how much output they are able to squeeze out of the puny little 281.

I think that moving up to the 331 is a great thing. Overhead cams can compete with pushrods if they are only down ~20 cubes, it is hard to do when you are down 70 or so.

I wish Ford would step up and build a mill that can compete head-to-head with the LS1/2/6. Camaro kicked Mustang butt since they moved from the 305 to the 350 (until 2002 when they were pulled of course), ironically about the same time Ford moved from the lowly 302 to the lowlier 281.

The displacement is anemic, I should have spoken more clearly. The torque figures and 1/4 mile times of the ford 281 versus the Chevy 350 are clear.

AzSnake · Dec 16, 2004

Edbert said:
Just for the sake of clarifying here...

I think it is amazing how much output they are able to squeeze out of the puny little 281.

I think that moving up to the 331 is a great thing. Overhead cams can compete with pushrods if they are only down ~20 cubes, it is hard to do when you are down 70 or so.

I wish Ford would step up and build a mill that can compete head-to-head with the LS1/2/6. Camaro kicked Mustang butt since they moved from the 305 to the 350 (until 2002 when they were pulled of course), ironically about the same time Ford moved from the lowly 302 to the lowlier 281.

The displacement is anemic, I should have spoken more clearly. The torque figures and 1/4 mile times of the ford 281 versus the Chevy 350 are clear.

I disagree
I have never lost to a LT1 when I was stock.
The LS1 motors were where GM pulled ahead in 1998 and at the time was only the most advanced pushrod motor ever developed.
These 4.6’s are capable of running the same numbers as LS motors. Take my example from earlier…Take a LS1 and a DOHC 4.6 and only make a C/R change for the DOHC motor to equal the LS1’s C/R. You will be running neck and neck with the outputs of the 2 motors. That’s the biggest difference between the GM motors and Ford. Ford decided not to give their Mod motors a higher C/R which doesn’t make sense because they can run fine with them. It was Fords decision not to make the motors compete with the LS’s not a problem with the displacement and not a problem with the DOHC design.

one2gamble · Dec 16, 2004

the lower compression allows the dohc motor to run more boost

HtownGT · Dec 16, 2004

i think that will be a good graduation present from college!

GinoGT · Dec 16, 2004

Read the link in my sig. Modulars + MORE stroke = sucks....there's already enough in the 4.6. Sure the 5.4 can make a lot of power, what idiot can't with 5.4 liters of displacement?

The only way you can come close to an LS1's power with a 4.6 N/A is by using the 4V heads. Now the 2V's could make awesome power N/A as well if it wasn't for the narrow bore, which shrouds the valves and kills airflow.

Given a choice, I would take a 4.6 with a bigger bore (makes it about 5 liters) than a 5.4 ANY DAY OF THE WEEK.

sawman70 · Dec 16, 2004

Rootus said:
You listed three nice engines. The two V12's make peak torque at 5500 and 5400 RPM respectively. The V10 makes it at 4200 RPM. The V10, weighing in with 8.3 liters of displacement, comes closest to delivering what I want. Too bad it's stuck in an $80k car.

So I think I have made my point -- it is next to impossible to get similar performance with a naturally aspirated motor to what we have right now with the current 4.6L SC. It's easy to throw peak numbers around, but what I want is stump pulling torque off the line, right where I can actually use it.

Dave

My peak wheel torque of 483 comes on at 2600 rotations.

Long live the blower.

Rootus · Dec 16, 2004

sawman70 said:
Long live the blower.

Indeed .

I saw an article in autoweek today, SVT is saying they will have more vehicles in the next couple of years than they have had at any one time in the past. They also say they are planning on increasing their use of forced induction for easy horsepower.

Dave

kirkyg · Dec 16, 2004

GinoGT said:
Read the link in my sig. Modulars + MORE stroke = sucks....there's already enough in the 4.6. Sure the 5.4 can make a lot of power, what idiot can't with 5.4 liters of displacement?

The only way you can come close to an LS1's power with a 4.6 N/A is by using the 4V heads. Now the 2V's could make awesome power N/A as well if it wasn't for the narrow bore, which shrouds the valves and kills airflow.

Given a choice, I would take a 4.6 with a bigger bore (makes it about 5 liters) than a 5.4 ANY DAY OF THE WEEK.

I agree with that for sure...

kirkyg

02LS1 · Dec 16, 2004

AzSnake said:
The LS1 motors were where GM pulled ahead in 1998 and at the time was only the most advanced pushrod motor ever developed.

The LS1 was introduced in 1997 (C5).

AzSnake said:
These 4.6’s are capable of running the same numbers as LS motors. Take my example from earlier…Take a LS1 and a DOHC 4.6 and only make a C/R change for the DOHC motor to equal the LS1’s C/R. You will be running neck and neck with the outputs of the 2 motors. That’s the biggest difference between the GM motors and Ford. Ford decided not to give their Mod motors a higher C/R which doesn’t make sense because they can run fine with them. It was Fords decision not to make the motors compete with the LS’s not a problem with the displacement and not a problem with the DOHC design.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but...weren't the DOHC 4.6's at 9.85:1?

The LS1 is 10.1:1...not too much of a difference there.

Don't get me wrong, increasing the CR will certainly increase power but I don't think it's as much as you think.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong...the '96-'98 GT's were 9.3:1 and were rated at 215-225HP...the '99-'04 GT's were 9.7:1 and were rated at 260HP but most of that power increase came from the better designed PI heads & intake, correct? So the SOHC 4.6 picked up 35HP with the PI heads, intake and a .4 bump in CR but yet you think that a .25 increase alone will net about 40HP (DOHC 4.6 = 9.85:1 and 305ishHP to the LS1 = 10.1:1 and 340-350HP)?

And BTW, I do agree that the 4.6 can easily run with LS1/LS6/LS2's (even heavily modded ones) with just one word, boost.

GinoGT · Dec 16, 2004

02LS1 said:
And BTW, I do agree that the 4.6 can easily run with LS1/LS6/LS2's (even heavily modded ones) with just one word, boost.

In just one word: true.

Now to further explain those words: the word "boost" isn't exactly something quick and easy. You're looking at thousands just on the complete blower kit and tune, and that's just the beginning. I wouldn't run more than 400RWHP on a stock 2V, plus the LS1's aren't even trying yet since 400RWHP is well within their means while still running N/A. So to keep up and surpass a heavily modded LS1, you're looking at a built engine to handle the abuse, on top of worked heads and different cams.

The engines can be built for insane amounts of power (anything can), but we need to get drastic (power adders) long before they do.

awalbert88 · Dec 17, 2004

GinoGT said:
In just one word: true.

Now to further explain those words: the word "boost" isn't exactly something quick and easy. You're looking at thousands just on the complete blower kit and tune, and that's just the beginning. I wouldn't run more than 400RWHP on a stock 2V, plus the LS1's aren't even trying yet since 400RWHP is well within their means while still running N/A. So to keep up and surpass a heavily modded LS1, you're looking at a built engine to handle the abuse, on top of worked heads and different cams.

The engines can be built for insane amounts of power (anything can), but we need to get drastic (power adders) long before they do.

Power can be made in one of three ways: displacement, compression, revs. Boost greatly increases compression. I could make the same argument as you in regards to the LS2. We can make the same power without needing to get "drastic" (larger displacement).

OHC motors are going to be more expensive to make power with than pushrod motors simply because they are more complex. The 4.6 3V in the new Mustang is one of the most technologically advanced V8's in a mainstream vehicle, and by far the most powerful at its price point.

If you want an engine to compete head-on with the LS2 and Hemi that doesn't use forced induction, look no further than the Hurricane. 6.3L SOHC 3V V8 making probably around 380hp and 420-450lb/ft of torque in truck form. Doubtful it'll ever be used in a passenger car, as the SVT model was the best bet for it (hence the test mules running around with it). I expect the next Lightning (if they do produce one) will actually have a supercharged version of the Hurricane, which should be good for around 500hp and 600lb/ft of torque.

one2gamble · Dec 17, 2004

GinoGT said:
The engines can be built for insane amounts of power (anything can), but we need to get drastic (power adders) long before they do.

how is a blower more drastic than a heads/cam swap?....oh yea, its not

AzSnake · Dec 17, 2004

one2gamble said:
the lower compression allows the dohc motor to run more boost

I'm talking about NA Cobra motors, not the 03/04's.

AzSnake · Dec 17, 2004

Rootus said:
Indeed .

I saw an article in autoweek today, SVT is saying they will have more vehicles in the next couple of years than they have had at any one time in the past. They also say they are planning on increasing their use of forced induction for easy horsepower.

Dave

You just made my day

AzSnake · Dec 17, 2004

02LS1 said:
The LS1 was introduced in 1997 (C5).

Correct me if I'm wrong here but...weren't the DOHC 4.6's at 9.85:1?
Yes but I was refering to the LS1 powered Fbodies.

02LS1 said:
The LS1 is 10.1:1...not too much of a difference there.

Don't get me wrong, increasing the CR will certainly increase power but I don't think it's as much as you think.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong...the '96-'98 GT's were 9.3:1 and were rated at 215-225HP...the '99-'04 GT's were 9.7:1 and were rated at 260HP but most of that power increase came from the better designed PI heads & intake, correct? So the SOHC 4.6 picked up 35HP with the PI heads, intake and a .4 bump in CR but yet you think that a .25 increase alone will net about 40HP (DOHC 4.6 = 9.85:1 and 305ishHP to the LS1 = 10.1:1 and 340-350HP)?

And BTW, I do agree that the 4.6 can easily run with LS1/LS6/LS2's (even heavily modded ones) with just one word, boost.

A 340-350 fwhp DOHC motor will run right with a LS1. Most LS1's only make roghly 340-350fwhp. This was my point exactly. That would put the Cobra right at or around the avarage RWHP for a LS1 at 290-300 RWHP. Anything over 300RWHP in a LS1 is not the norm, their exceptions.
I have seen multiple DOHC motors bumped to 10:1 and running right about 300 RWHP, don't know what to tell you. I must admit they were all 99/01's starting as a base of 320hp with the better heads and intake vs my 98's 305 factory stock. That would implicate a 20-30 hp increase.

I run with LS1's, even modified ones and only have gears and a few bolt ons and exhaust.... and my cars weight is about 200 lbs heavier than a LS1.

AzSnake · Dec 17, 2004

Gloveperson said:
Because adding boost requires a strong bottom end, a H/C swap does not. H/C is called a swap for a reason, while adding boost requires the whole engine to be calibrated, bottem and top end.

LS1's can reach almost 500 RWHP on stock cubes N/A..but no one ever does that since it would be cheaper to reach that number with more cubes. And it would have serious driveability issues because of the huge cam and highly advanced head work, while 500 can be reached with a mild cam in a 408 CI LS1.

I have 395 with a stealth cam and stock heads in case any one cared

MMFF did some SOHC tests in their sept 04 issue. They got over 401fwhp and 389fwtq with it running 10:1 C/R, some minor head work, Comp Cams and Accufab TB. I’m willing to bet if you ran the same mods on a 99/01 Cobra motor you would be at least hitting 450-475. And btw these cams weren't radical at all, Comp cams xe274h extreme energy. And of course they were running headders on the engine dyno.

GinoGT · Dec 17, 2004

Where did you get that information on the Hurricane engine from? It's still all rumors until Ford steps up and annouces it. Even on that front, all I've heard is "6.2 liters".

I'm hoping they move FAR away from the gigantic screw up of the modular's narrow bore.

one2gamble · Dec 17, 2004

AzSnake said:
I'm talking about NA Cobra motors, not the 03/04's.

so was I, Ford knows its customers and knows the 4valves strong points when it comes to mods. It could run 6-8lbs safely while an ls1 can run more like 4-6. They couldnt run lower because the motor would have just been a dog. They hit their hp numbers while leaving room for a safe upgrade.

Glove,

As far as a blower being more drastic than a h/c your tripping. A blower is basically a bolt on. I am not talking about running insane amounts of boost. If you want 400hp throw a blower on with some higher flowing injectors, its not a big deal at all. Of course if you want 500+hp its going to be a lot more work and at 281cubes it sure as hell should be. Then again the 4.6L 03/04 cobra motor shows you whats possible when the motor is built for boost. Turbo that bitch and your looking at 800+

Green97Racer · Dec 18, 2004

I'll believe it when I see it

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